Carrier staring question/problem

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

My Mk.1 Canadian carrier has developed a starting quirk.
Fully charged battery...hit the starter and row-row........row.........er..er.. (maybe vroom)

through a little petrol down the carb and row-row-row vrooommm

What's going on?

[rob love]

Hard to tell by your "row row row", but is that a nice quick "row row row, or a laboured one?

I used to blame many things for the hard starting on a carrier.....bad ground, vapor lock, poor fuel pump/worn pump push rod, tired coil, the difference in fuel makeup since the 40s, even our expectations of how easy it should be to start a vehicle.

One solution I found to my starting problems was to hook the 12 volt battery I had stored in the radio battery box to the starter, and the 6 volt battery still powered the rest of the vehicle. I would put a 6V solenoid controlled by the starter switch to feed the 12 volts through. The vehicle would start quickly every time, whether hot or cold. I have to wonder if the load of the starter reduced the voltage to the coil enough that it made starting (without any assistance like priming) difficult.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

First case, row-row...(dead battery....wait for it)....rrr..ow. Very lethargic. After a squirt: row-row-row (very quick, what you'd expect if all things were perfect) followed by a nice varoom.

Oh, how I'd love to keep this 6V and original.

Originally Posted by rob love

Hard to tell by your "row row row", but is that a nice quick "row row row, or a laboured one?

I used to blame many things for the hard starting on a carrier.....bad ground, vapor lock, poor fuel pump/worn pump push rod, tired coil, the difference in fuel makeup since the 40s, even our expectations of how easy it should be to start a vehicle.

One solution I found to my starting problems was to hook the 12 volt battery I had stored in the radio battery box to the starter, and the 6 volt battery still powered the rest of the vehicle. I would put a 6V solenoid controlled by the starter switch to feed the 12 volts through. The vehicle would start quickly every time, whether hot or cold. I have to wonder if the load of the starter reduced the voltage to the coil enough that it made starting (without any assistance like priming) difficult.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I've been playing with it. Very hot positive (ground) post on the battery.

[colin jones]

Bruce, if you have a hot terminal that generally says it's a bad connection.
Remedy!
Remove, clean thoroughly, bit of grease on the terminal, replace and tighten then check the others.
Colin.

[Lynn Eades]

A good (large cross section) earth strap is supposed to be vital in all 6volt vehicles. Jeeps are an example.
Nice clean surfaces at every contact point.
Maybe run a battery earth direct to a starter through bolt.

[motto]

With only 6 volts you can't afFord to lose any. A hot terminal = resistance = voltage drop.

To watch engine starting and operation through one of those heat sensitive cameras would be an interesting exercise.

David

[David Dunlop]

Just a thought because I had a bad battery in my car once.

See if you can pull the battery completely from the carrier and apply a heavy load to it. If your positive terminal heats up, you very likely have a bad connection for it inside the battery: i.e. the battery is toast.

David

[rob love]

With regard to batteries, there are a only a few test tools you need. A hydrometer (I prefer the glass tube type with the floating bulb over the plastic antifreeze tester type) and one of those $30 load testers that are everywhere these days. But usually, if the hydrometer reads OK, the battery is fine.

Check the strength of each cell with the hydrometer. If all are equal, and in the yellow or the green, you are good. If, any one cell is more than 20 points out from the rest, the battery is toast and will not give good service. Make an allowance if you just added a bunch of water and have not mixed it up with the acid. You can do this by pumping the hydrometer in and out a few times to mix the fluid.

If you have a dead battery, take some readings periodically while charging the battery. Same deal, as the cells come up they should not be more than 20 points apart from each other.

I also prefer slowly charging a battery, with less than 7 amps......2 amps is even better. A quick charge can really damage a battery if the temperatures are not controlled.

As for other battery tools, I have the old "exide" case type battery tool carrier, which is made of the bakelite material the battery cases were made out of. In it is a battery carrying strap, a battery brush, battery terminal spreader pliers, and the round nose battery pliers, and the battery post puller. The spreader pliers are especially great. They allow you to evenly spread the terminals so you can get them all the way onto the posts.
As well, the carrier has a bulb type syringe, like you use for basting turkeys (for putting water into the cells) and the hydrometer.

The battery carriers are hard to find here in the west, because they also had an area for water. Guys would leave the water in them and they would crack in the winter.

[Hans Mulder]

As an aside, for the modern sealed batteries, Canadian Tire has a nice computerized tester that will run a 20 min diagnostic and tell you down the the cell what the problem is.

[Jim Burrill]

Copied Rob's plan and used the 12v Wireless battery to just spin the starter from a new 6V solenoid. Worked like a champ in all three carriers we did this with.

And having 12v int he Wireless box is sorta authentic!

[rob love]

I think to be truly authentic, you need to use the hand crank after the battery doesn't cut it. After that handle whacks your elbow a few times, and you finish the happy dance, you will be happy to do whatever it takes not to have to use the crank handle again.

Personally, after I finished swearing and dancing around, and waited for the pain to subside enough to decide if I had broken my elbow or not, I would look at my Ford KL and it would be happily purring there waiting for me.

[Jordan Baker]

I've had the same hard starting issues with my Carrier this year as well. So far I have the problem narrowed down to a bad connection at the starter bolt to power cable. My copper bolt is only half as long as it should be (top half broken off at some point). The threads were also chewed up and it has since been re-tapped down to 1/4"-20nc. Nowy cable is loose again and it's time to replace the special bolt.

Rob I've also used the hand crank a few times. The first time I sliced all my caluses off of both hands and said quite a few words. Other times I've hardly moved it and it fired right up.

Bruce I'm all for keeping it stock 6 volt like you.

[Ron Pier]

I have to fess up! After years of criticising others and refusing to join their ranks of converting my Jeep to 12 volt. I have got a 12 volt carrier. It has a 12 volt starter. It still charges through it's original dynamo but with a period 12 volt regulator. I swapped the bulbs and a wizard friend has put resistors on the gauges........I've never had a working fuel gauge though?? I've put a little black period starter button on the dash and hidden a solanoid near the starter. Blimey does it whiz over. Ron

[Lynn Eades]

Ron, I think a 6 volt starter works fine on 12 volts. Just don't leave it engaged for too long.
Maybe if it spins over fast, that's what you already have?

[Ron Pier]

Possible Lynn. It's a long time since I've actually looked at it, But I think it is stamped 12Volt. It's the type that requires a solenoid and not a pull cable.
6Volts is fine if everything is spot on and you run them frequently. I'm guilty of leaving mine standing for long periods but connected to an Accu-Mate charger. Same battery for about ten years now. When it dies, I'll fit one of those sealed for life type. Ron

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Thanks all. The battery seems OK and I gave the ground a little work. But the second part of my question is why the faster cranking with an ounce of gas down the carb? There's a marked cranking speed difference before the gas (slow) and almost 12 volt-ish (fast) once the gas is in the manifold. Is it lubrication? (doesn't make sense) Vapor or pressure? Part ignition on one or more cylinders helping the starter along? (yet there is no sound of firing until it fires up on all eight)

[rob love]

Lubrication could be part of it....a washed down cylinder will lose some of it's compression. Could also be that it is starting to start.

If you want to find you, disconnect your coil or leave the ignition switch off, and try the gas trick. If it goes faster with the gas, it's the cylinders washing down. If it does not, then it may well be the ignition of the fuel.

[Jordan Baker]

My engine on cranking really slows down when gas gets into the cylinders.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

My engine on cranking really slows down when gas gets into the cylinders.

That's because your carrier is a left hand one. Mine is right hand...

[Lynn Eades]

O.K. Bruce, you have to explain now.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

O.K. Bruce, you have to explain now.

Just noting that Jordan's carrier's fuel-in-the-carb reacts opposite to mine. Like left hand threads turn opposite to right hand ones and summer is winter in Australia.

OK, I'll never try a joke again.

[Lynn Eades]

OMG. What have I done!!!!

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

OMG. What have I done!!!!

A good, noble, wholesome thing.

It will save everyone from hearing me tell the one about those three guys that went into a bar.

[Lynn Eades]

Bruce, Most of those good old jokes are now politically incorrect.
(btw. this is just another example that nearly every thread is hijacked)
I'm not good at jokes, If I could remember one, I'd be a lot better.
Nowadays they all offend someone. I've just read that your neighbours will record this transmission, and store it for 100 years, so it would need to be a really good one.

[chris vickery]

My .02 worth, observations on 6 volt systems.
-6v batteries are tempermental and require a good charge. They need to be maintained carefully monitoring acid and charge level
-6v batteries require proper, clean grounds. Even a battery sitting for a few months can signifigantly discharge and cause corrosion at the ground points
-6v batteries can be changed out for...8v batteries-enough extra umph without having to change over your system to 12v, many tractor guys do this
-6v is NFG in cold weather
-battery failure is very common and also aggravating as most guys think its something else
-Ford flathead distributors and coils are also very prone to issues especially due to overheating (thermal breakdown) and out of time. There is only one remedy for these issues- buy a newly made original type coil and time your dizzy on a timing fixture using the instructional book. I recall one guy whose carrier would start to misfire after several minutes running, then recover and start again after cooling down. He swore it was something else- it was a bad coil pure and simple
-6v starter will go for a really long time on 12v, there are many ways to incorporate a 12v battery into the 6v system and still look original without the headaches

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Bruce, Most of those good old jokes are now politically incorrect.
(btw. this is just another example that nearly every thread is hijacked)
I'm not good at jokes, If I could remember one, I'd be a lot better.
Nowadays they all offend someone. I've just read that your neighbours will record this transmission, and store it for 100 years, so it would need to be a really good one.

I work in a government office. ALL jokes are politically incorrect. Then they have the nerve to say we are a happy, easy going, fun place to work. Even he gentlest joke is precious contraband and spoken (certainly not via e-mail!!) in hushed tones.

And that's why I have to exercise my diminished humour skills here.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

If only I could be cured of my 6V addition.

Originally Posted by chris vickery

My .02 worth, observations on 6 volt systems.
-6v batteries are tempermental and require a good charge. They need to be maintained carefully monitoring acid and charge level
-6v batteries require proper, clean grounds. Even a battery sitting for a few months can signifigantly discharge and cause corrosion at the ground points
-6v batteries can be changed out for...8v batteries-enough extra umph without having to change over your system to 12v, many tractor guys do this
-6v is NFG in cold weather
-battery failure is very common and also aggravating as most guys think its something else
-Ford flathead distributors and coils are also very prone to issues especially due to overheating (thermal breakdown) and out of time. There is only one remedy for these issues- buy a newly made original type coil and time your dizzy on a timing fixture using the instructional book. I recall one guy whose carrier would start to misfire after several minutes running, then recover and start again after cooling down. He swore it was something else- it was a bad coil pure and simple
-6v starter will go for a really long time on 12v, there are many ways to incorporate a 12v battery into the 6v system and still look original without the headaches