Dodge WC question

Jan Mostek · #1 30-05-13, 22:35

Hi guys,
See the enclosed pictures which show the Dodge WC modified in Russia for using by Czech unit leader as a staff car. Don´t you havy any idea if such body could have been taken over from some (german?) car? Unfortunately, the vehicle was damaged by tank mine in 1945.
Thank you in advance for any comments,
Jan Mostek, Prague, Czech republic.

gordon · #2 31-05-13, 16:49

That's odd.

The back body s not Dodge, windscreen height is right for a Weapon Carrier, RH running board is the correct length for a Command Car but no battery box, left hand running board has no depression for spare wheel.

I'd guess everything to the rear of the windscreen has been altered or adapted, though some of the hood frame could be original.

Jan Mostek · #3 31-05-13, 18:33

Only a short note regarding the Dodge. The unit which operats this particular vehicle reportedly received only WC 52s (from Russians). So there is probably nothing from original WC Staff Car. I wonder if the body is not of German origin.

Bill Murray · #4 31-05-13, 23:44

Hallo Jan:

First, let me thank you for a most rare and unusual selection of photos of a Dodge variant I have never seen before, and I have been looking at Dodges for some 55 years now.

Second, due to my rapidly advancing years and rapidly declining memory, I am now starting to put a number on my sentences responding to questions like this so I do not lose my way.

1. I agree with Gordon, the bodywork up to the cowl/windscreen is 100% original Dodge as it came from the manufacturer. Same for the wheels and the windscreen itself.

2. The style of the doors and the rear of the body are quite typical of a German Kommandeurwagen or a "SuperKubelwagen", but.............

3. I do not believe the Germans captured any number of this WC variant if any and further I do not believe they had the ability to transfer a Dodge from the Russian front to Germany to get this sort of high quality coach built vehicle.

4. The Czech army had in their inventory before the fall of the country some numbers of Skoda and Tatra Kommandeurwagen type vehicles that were at least similar to your photos.

5. While the Czech auto industry was certainly damaged in the earliest years of the war to a certain extent, it was not all that bad and the industry continued to make vehicles for the German military forces for some years.

6. This leads me to believe that the Dodge was re-bodied as a Kommandeurwagen for the Czech forces by a, to me unknown, Czech coach builder.

7. I have in my bookmarks files some websites dealing with Czech coach builders and I will start doing a search to see if I can come up with a match for your Dodge.

Thanks again for sharing these photos with us.

Bill

Jan Mostek · #5 01-06-13, 00:41

Hello Bill,
I am glad that you found the pictures interesting. The commander for which the vehicle was made was col. Svoboda, later general, before Russian invasion to Czechoslovakia in 1968 he became a president of Czechoslovakia. During the war he was a highest commander of Czechoslovak units in Russia, units which were a part of Red Army. So all the stuff they used was either Russian or Lend Lease from Russians(for example they used British-made helmets). It is very unlikely that the basis for the modification was Czechoslovak-made staff car like Tatra or Skoda. I am also 100% sure that it was not modified by Gernans. If the captured German bodywork was used (which seems to me to be the most likely because the modification looks quite sophisticated to be made by Russians) I have no idea which one. Most of the makes I am familiar with have different shapes of doors or are remarkably smaller for a Dodge chassis.
Best regards,
Jan.

Jeff Gordon · #6 01-06-13, 14:26

Hi Jan I have a quick question.
The photos are very pixulated so it is a bit hard to tell but does the profile of the door match the profile of the cowl?
Back in the day a good motor body builder would be able to fabricate a new body quicker rather than mucking around with trying to make something else fit.
Just a thought!

Eduard Sorokin · #7 01-06-13, 18:59

Hello, men !

What can You tell about this vehicle ?

I am sure, the vehicle on images in Jan's post is the same.

gordon · #8 01-06-13, 19:27

Mid to late WC T214 series. Nothing rearward of the windscreen is Dodge.

Even the bits that look similar, like the running boards and rear fenders, aren't Dodge factory

Hanno Spoelstra · #9 01-06-13, 21:22

Jan, Eduard,

Thanks for bringing up this interesting conversion which I have never seen before.

I would hazard a guess that the Soviets converted a number of Dodge weapon carriers into staff cars for high ranking officers. As suggested, a coach built job of an wooden frame clad in sheet metal, topped of with a canvas convertible top. That was the way these things were built back then, the construction method is nothing exotic.

Here's hoping more information comes to light one day.

Hanno

Jan Mostek · #10 01-06-13, 23:10

To Eduar Sorokin, re. Dodge above.
Hi Eduard, look at the body shape, it is different, so I am almost sure it is not the same although it might be from the same "body builder".

Jan Mostek · #11 02-06-13, 01:05

To Jeff Gordon.

yes, I agree that the body is simple enough to be made "in the field" by handy bodybuilder or mechanic from wooden lathes and sheet metal.
Concerning the photo quality, unfortunately I am not able to give you much better detail than the enclosed one. It seems the rear body does not fit 100%, which would mean the rear body was realy taken over from something, but where? Note also the visible bolt head on the front door column, it seems to be on the location where is the connecting bolt also on original Dodge.
Cheers over the ocean, Jan.

Lynn Eades · #12 02-06-13, 04:29

Jan's photo shows a curved top line to the body Eduard's one is a straight line.
Both are quite different styles. They even appear to have the different styles of tyre profiles (were both types of tyre available during the war?)
Gordon, I would suggest earlier T214, based on shock absorber linkages, and pre rubber shortage (looks to have no canvas roll seal at the windscreen to cowl)

gordon · #13 02-06-13, 09:08

You might be right about the shocks and the rubber Lynn.

I was looking at the blackout light, 'wire-on' later standard grille guards, no Dodge badge, stuff like that, which would put it after the middle of 1942 for me. Early or late is relative.

Looking at the bodywork, it doesn't shout Russian to me. Any chance it was done in Czechoslovakia ? It is much more like something you would find on a Tatra, and of course the Germans kept the Tatra facilities up and running so they would be capable of that.

Lynn Eades · #14 02-06-13, 09:39

Gordon, I have no knowledge of the European side. What do you think about it being a post war build? What about an early Volvo effort? It appears very minimalistic, but well done.

With regards the Dodge donor, yes I would say mid 42 (which in my books, I would call early for a 3/4 ton WC) I believe the Dodge badge, no blackout light, and the two symetrical headlight guards, to be all very early.
Bart Vanderveen's article on the WC55 (Wheels and Tracks) shows three of them on a beach on a pacific island, and at least one had symetrical headlight guards. If it wasn't for that picture, I would have said they were only on experimental models. I have (It's in pieces) a 6th August 42. built WW55.(ex Marine Corps)
I have no recall of when the grill construction changed.

Hanno Spoelstra · #15 02-06-13, 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordon

Looking at the bodywork, it doesn't shout Russian to me. Any chance it was done in Czechoslovakia ? It is much more like something you would find on a Tatra, and of course the Germans kept the Tatra facilities up and running so they would be capable of that.

Gordon, agree. What it shouts is German "Umbau-wagen", both in style (slanted rear edge of doors) and practice. The Germans had a habit of converting perfectly usable trucks into their Kfz. 12 or 15 body style. Picture below shows a converted Bedford MW, you will notice the similarities.

But the big question in this case is: where would the Germans have captured a mid-war Dodge WC52? The other allied trucks were mostly captured in Europe during the Blitzkrieg, after which there were time and resources available in the occupied countries for these conversions. Later during the war I cannot see the Germans devoting time and resources to these type of conversions.

H.

gordon · #16 02-06-13, 10:02

Lynn, I've had a couple of early Dodges, up to about July '42, that had symettrical grilles. Other features included no rifle rack or pioneer rack ( not invented yet )

Hanno,

I'd suggest this was rebuilt immediately post war somewhere like a Czech facility that was building U-Wagens for the Germans a year or two previously, hence the equipment, facilities, and style.

I'd also suggest that the Weapon Carrier must have been almost new as I can't see a dent, ding, or scratch in the front metal, which isn't common.

Jan Mostek · #17 02-06-13, 10:20

Hi guys,
first of all I would like to thank you for the above discussion.
Secondly, a short note about the country of origin. The vehicle was used, as I mentioned, by Czech 1.st Army Corps which were a part of Red Army. The pictures I have sent were taken during so called Carpatian operation which happened before Russians entered Czechoslovakia on Polish-Czechoslovakian borders (mountains) under leadership of Russian Marshall Koniev and begun in September 1944. In this area also the vehicle ended up by the german anti-tank mine collision.

motto · #18 02-06-13, 12:32

If the vehicle was in the possession of the Germans and underwent modification by them it presumably would have been captured somewhere the allies were in contact with them. Does Italy fit the bill? North Africa seems too remote and I doubt they even got much of their own gear back from there.

It makes sense that examples of anything new that was encountered would have been sent back to Germany for evaluation and possibly made use of afterwards. However, it all seems very unlikely that after capturing, examining and modifying the vehicle it was then taken from them by the Russians in an excellent condition. It's far more believable that the vehicle was acquired and modified by some Russian or allied agency.

David

Lynn Eades · #19 02-06-13, 12:48

Did the Russians get Dodge Weapons Carriers (along with Jeeps, Studebakers etc.)

Hanno Spoelstra · #20 02-06-13, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Did the Russians get Dodge Weapons Carriers (along with Jeeps, Studebakers etc.)

Yes, according to this site http://www.o5m6.de/dodge_wc51.html about 25,000 WC-series in total.

H.

Bill Murray · #21 02-06-13, 13:21

Hi All:

This is not really my area of expertise, but........

1. The Russians did get the WC Dodges and to the best I can find out, began receiving them in 1943 after the US Army and Marines got the first batches.

2. Jan has given us a date which is invaluable I think. By that time, the Germans were on their way "home" and conceivably would have had little time and resources to waste on making up special umbau-wagens for high ranking officers.

3. We now also have a location, which would indicate the Dodge came from the East, not the West, on it's way to Czechoslovakia so to say. So, the Tatra possibility may fail the test.

4. On the other hand, the Russians had 100s of thousands of German prisoners on hand to use for whatever purpose and not all were riflemen.
Many were artisans and craftsmen who may have done exactly this type of bodywork both before and during the War. The styling is certainly typical of such German conversions.

5. Therefore, if my logic machine is still functioning, I would say both vehicles could well have been converted somewhere in the Russian sphere of influence and possibly to a German design and maybe even by German POWs.

I hope that makes sense.

Cheers
Bill

gordon · #22 02-06-13, 13:42

The completely undamaged nature of the front sheet metal and bumper would suggest something like that.

Jan Mostek · #23 02-06-13, 18:48

Well, I guess, Bill could be neat the truth. I have no idea about organisation of russian front units, but thex definitely have enough od POWs in this tine. On the other hand I am not too familiar with russian war machine but ut seems to me they had lack of vehicles like staff cars. Some Land Lease jeeps, small Gazes and that´s it. And in this case, even if he was Czech, but was high rank officer.

Eduard Sorokin · #24 02-06-13, 19:19

How many different assumptions !
I feel sure, all things are much easier.

For example, at that time German POWs were involved in works in building of different buildings, channels, roads, plants and houses only. In many our towns (including my town) and cities are the buildings until today, which were built by Germans.
Highly skilled German experts (for example, rocket designers, etc) were involved by Russians only after War ended.

As to body doors of these Dodges - here are my versions:

And Petrol tank refuelling hole is in same position as on image in my post, and spare wheel on rear. And canvas top is the same.

The vehicle on this image was developed experimentally by ZiS Truck factory in 1943. And it is obviously, Russian designers had some captured German vehicles before their eyes . Even canvas top looks like German style.
Probably, after tests this vehicle (these vehicles) were not adopted by army, and was remained in a reserve. Later this vehicle has been transferred for L. Svoboda use (and not usual open-cab Dodge, because he was not ordinary soldier, but high Commander Officer of friendly Czech Forces).

What are Your opinions ?

motto · #25 02-06-13, 23:17

It appears from the website referred to by Hanno that no Dodge Command Cars were delivered to the Russians among the almost 25,000 Dodges they received.

At the same time there may well have been a perceived requirement for such a vehicle and an alternative produced using available design and resources even if only in small numbers.

This brings us back to Jan's original question/s. Was the body purpose built for the Dodge chassis or was a body from another vehicle grafted on?

If purpose built, where was it done? If from another vehicle, what vehicle was it?

My guess would be purpose built as it doesn't have the appearance of being cobbled together from different vehicles. The skills needed to build and fit out a body would certainly have been available among those captured at Stalingrad and possibly scavenged vehicles for parts or patterns. The German influence is quite clear.

David

Jan Mostek · #26 03-06-13, 00:06

To Motto:
How it is possible that people in the country of cangaroos have the same habbits if they have a rush of energy, like here in the Middle Europe?

Jan Mostek · #27 03-06-13, 00:12

Another question regarding the Dodge.
The rear compartment (trunk?) seems to haveve a kind of a lid. But there is also a spare wheel installed, which is rather heavy to be on openable lid. What is your opinion? Is only the upper part movable? Or the rear lid? Upwards or downwards? or the spare wheel is fastened not to sa lid, but to the frame? What is your opinion? thksrgds Jan.

Eduard Sorokin · #28 03-06-13, 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

according to this site http://www.o5m6.de/dodge_wc51.html about 25,000 WC-series in total.

Quantity data are different, as usually in history: I have found the information about 19.621 Dodge WC vehicles, supplied to the USSR.

gordon · #29 03-06-13, 08:52

Having handled numerous 3/4 ton wheels I know just how heavy they are. I wouldn't want them on a tailgate, but I can't see how else you would use that area.

Lynn Eades · #30 03-06-13, 09:27

Gordon, I imagined an arrangement, where the weight is borne primarily by the tow hitch, and folds back from there to get at the boot (trunk)

Eduard, I would suggest this particular Dodge WC51 is earlier production than the 1943 batch that your link describes. Although very smart the pictures in the link, are "artists impression" and show changes from different periods of production. for example none of the trucks with the shock absorber linkages shown, would ever have carried the Dodge badge on the radiator shroud.
I'm no authority, but I think the Dodge in your first post is from the first half of 1942. This would suggest to me a different direction of delivery. What about the possibility of it going with the early Jeeps, MA's,GP's etc. that I have heard so many of, went to Russia.