Morris Y Van find

[Lang]

Getting more info.

The owner, aged 60, can remember this vehicle sitting in his older sister's yard in the late 50's looking "exactly the same condition as now"

He has done some research for me and says it was "bought from an army auction right after the war". It was used by a family as their car and they are the ones who put the windows in. They are certainly not an amateur modification and look very professionally done. In the late 40's it was used commercially as a baker's van before being sold to the current family who only used it for a "few years" before parking and forgetting it.

Photo of the Ford 10 which is an almost exact clone of the Morris (or vice versa) right down to the off-set engine. It shows this style of window was used during the period.

Lang

[gordon]

I wonder if there was any wheel interchangeability with other contemporary makes, like the Ford ?

Might end up getting in four wheels from four different continents, but as long as you get there. It's not like not having the wheels is going to slow you down on the rest of it. I'm sure if any came up for sale someone in MLU-land would be willing to buy and post them on.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lang

Photo of the Ford 10 which is an almost exact clone of the Morris (or vice versa) right down to the off-set engine. It shows this style of window was used during the period.

Hi Lang,
It is interesting to see the Ford photo, because I believe that is a Martin Walter Utilicon conversion (ie a personnel carrier). This company was in Folkestone, Kent and converted a huge number of van conversions over many years, largely on Bedfords latterly.

Here is a link to another 12/4 van in Australia and looking at the engine number, is close to yours, pity your chassis number is not complete. It has the Martin Walter conversion, side windows slightly different, but would be interesting to see if the rear floor looks the same on yours. This one was apparently bought new.
http://www.svvs.org/Utilevan.shtml

I remember as a kid, the owner of the village shop had one of these van with windows in, and the Royal Mail used them as well. Still a few around and I was aghast recently when I saw one made in to a "hot rod", bet it did not have the wheezing side valve in it though !

regards, Richard

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Lang,
Another website with a link to the owner of the other 12/4 van in Australia:
http://www.iamo.org.uk/Restorations/...20Utilevan.htm

regards, Richard

[Lang]

Gordon,

I certainly would look at wheels from anywhere. 16" are readily available but 18"?

Richard,

Trying to track down the Australian Morris Y owner, If his details are correct it puts the whole story from my owner in doubt as the dates can't be reconciled.

Lang

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lang

Richard,

Trying to track down the Australian Morris Y owner,

Lang

Lang,
Here is the owners email from my second link, imoretonAToptusnet.com.au ( remove AT and insert @)

[Mike Cecil]

Lang,

Thanks for the data, but I have been unable to equate it with the very limited references I have to Morris vans in military service in Australia. Nevertheless, the records show some interesting things in the light of your find, and the posts above.

The USAFIA returned a Morris 'Light English Utility' in Sydney for disposal by the CDC in late 1944. It had 17,660 miles on the clock. US Army registration number was USA-U-27167. No engine or chassis number given.

The RAN list three possibles, all listed as still in service in the post-war period (late 1940s). They were operated from HMAS Harmon and the Belconnen Wireless Station, both near Canberra (The big wireless station @ Belconnen was for all international government messaging during and post-war. Now defunct and last I heard, awaiting dismantling of the huge tower). RAN registrations were:

RAN 58259 ... eng number 65932)
RAN 58258 ... eng number 66080) These appear to be in a wartime group.
RAN 60191 ... eng number NPSC14042. This appears to be post-war: it's in a group that includes Holdens, etc.

The first two, by coincidence, are described as 'Utilivans' which now means a lot more to me than when I first saw the term, thanks to these posts. The last is described as a 'Van'. The first two engine numbers are interesting in the light of yours (70203) which might indicate the RAN ones were earlier production? - doubtless our English friends with greater knowledge of Morris vehicle engine numbers can comment on that.

IF the RAN ones were wartime, they would have been painted in KG3 as per the camouflage regulations, but possibly re-painted post war in either dark blue or seagrey. If similar vehicles had been disposed of by the RAN at war's end, then most likely in KG3 paint.

HOWEVER, the RAN had an alarming propensity to re-issue registrations and migrate the plates to different vehicles once the original was disposed of. So, while it appears that these (above) are wartime registrations, this is not certain. Maybe the approx. production year can be ascertained from the engine numbers? Also, I don't have anywhere near a complete list of RAN registrations, so they may have had others I have not found a record of as yet (and which were disposed of at war's end?).

Something else to consider - and this is just theorizing - I would expect that, if the Morris is wartime, then its production year should be pre-1942, rather than 1942 or later, as imports from the UK were restricted during the 1940-41 period (but still possible to import commercial type goods), then severely restricted from late 1941 onwards, with virtually no civilian MVs imported until the end of the war. I cannot see a few Morris vans being high on the governments import agenda during the 1942-1945 period, especially when there was an over-abundance of modified conventional vehicles already 'on the books'.

The other (remote?) possibility is that these were Refugee Cargo, arriving in Oz in late 41/early 42, having been diverted while en route to English forces in Malaya, etc. They would have to be pre-42 build to be considered for that scenario.

Hope this helps.

Mike C

[Lang]

Mike,

Thanks for all that info. These are very interesting vehicles. Maybe a fourth possibility would be imported with returning Middle East vehicles? There were certainly some orphans came back with that lot and there were hundreds of small non-tactical vehicles running around Cairo.

It would appear in all likelyhood, although production of these ran from 1939 that my vehicle is post war. I have had a good look at it and the paint is certainly military and done right up under dash and tight corners which is usually not the case with a respray - suppose there were thousands of gallons of excess army paint sold after the war so it would have been available. Why would anyone paint their new? car army green just after the war?

The investigation proceeds!

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

Lang,

Yes, I had considered the possibility of ex-Middle East, but a quick look through the data didn't show any evidence of such vehicles, so I more or less dismissed it as a credible source (they were mostly tactical trucks, tractors, etc)

One I hadn't considered, however, was the build-up of Brit forces in Australia in 1945, preparatory to the invasion of Japan. Some logistics people were here, and had commenced to organize for an influx of more Brit personnel when the bomb got dropped and it was all over. Maybe this is a 'leave behind' from them?

I'll be interested to know from our English friends if and how the engine numbers line up with production dates.

Mike C

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lang

It would appear in all likelyhood, although production of these ran from 1939 that my vehicle is post war. I have had a good look at it and the paint is certainly military and done right up under dash and tight corners which is usually not the case with a respray - suppose there were thousands of gallons of excess army paint sold after the war so it would have been available. Why would anyone paint their new? car army green just after the war?

The investigation proceeds!

Lang,
In an old Lockheed brake catalogue it lists as follows;
12/4, 8/10cwt Van 1935
12hp, Series II, 10cwt Van, 1935-39
12hp, Van, Series Y, 10cwt, 1944
12hp, Van, Series Y, 10cwt, ARP, 1940

from this and other references I have found it looks like they were not known a Y types until in the 40's and your chassis plate has it as a 12/4 so looks to be prewar.