Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Private_collector

The hardener makes the finished product considerably more durable.

I've been meaning to ask your advice Tony - what are the relative merits of two-pack vs. enamel with hardener? I'm considering Light Stone matt camo so durability/stain resistance is a major issue. Light Stone is very pale and will no doubt pick up a lot of road grime, so it will need to stand up to regular washing. I never wash my white car but a FGT is a different matter!

[Keith Webb]

Maybe you can build a truck wash into your new shed. It is challenging to wash the roof of a Gun Tractor.
I'm the same regarding cars, although I do wash mine about once a year.

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

I never wash my white car but a FGT is a different matter!

[Wayne Henderson]

The main problem of using matt and lusterless paint is well known, oil stains,
hand prints and fading. Your pride and joy soon looks like its been through a war...

The life of a matt or lusterless paint job can be extended for years by a simple top coat of satin clear.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Wayne Henderson

The main problem of using matt and lusterless paint is well known, oil stains, hand prints and fading. Your pride and joy soon looks like its been through a war...

Sounds like the voice of experience Wayne! BTW what paint did you finish up using on your FGT?

[Mrs Vampire]

I rubbed back a bit on the Stuart and found the following layers.

grey primer , US Lustreless Olive Drab, Black stencil, Australian Olive Drab , Australian light stone colour disruptive camo brush painted with plenty of runs, some red oxide applied in the seventies, Australian Vietnam era Olive drab put on in the seventies, areas of Australian dark olive put on in the eighties .

Photos below. I would be keen to know what the stencil ,means . It was original US marking XX! in an elongated diamond with ZZB below it. Looks a bit like a paint code.

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Gina,

I'll openly admit I might be way off, but I thought that the diamond like that was a USMC marking? I can't think where, but I had seen similar markings leading to USMC history being talked about with jeeps on g503.com.

I saw you posted this on there too, but perhaps go into the USMC jeep forum on g503.com and have a look?

I hope I'm not leading you on a wild goose chase, but thought worth mentioning.

Cheers,
Ian.

[Lynn Eades]

Thanks Robert for the entertainment.

[colin jones]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Hello Gina,

I'll be the first to admit I have no idea what these markings mean.

One of the rear armour panels on my M3A1 scout car had the same markings in black paint when I stripped it back for painting. It was between the red oxide undercoat and the original layer of dark olive drab.
l too lean towards a paint code. I have tried to highlight it in my photo - I should have taken a better shot but............

This is probably as helpful as a fart in a spacesuit.

Robert.

One would hope the exhaust is not connected to the air supply?

[Private_collector]

[QUOTE=Tony Wheeler;177951]what are the relative merits of two-pack vs. enamel with hardener? /QUOTE]

Great differences, with the genuine 2 Pack urethanes beating enamels hands down in durability to UV, abrasion, and impact resistance. Never once in my years of painting have I been asked to paint any vehicle with a 'flattened' urethane. It has always been the preference to use an enamel (often referred to as 'Jam'). In light of its properties, that may sound strange. Prior to recent experience, all efforts were made to achieve the highest gloss, not the least. And there lays the debate. Its all to do with the finish.

Remember when I first started painting my wheels? I had initially trialled a true 2 Pack, which needed a flattening base added to achieve the desired level of reduced gloss. I was told a certain percentage of flat base was required, then added that amount, and found it was still too glossy. Next coat, more base added, and less gloss, but still far too much. At a particular point I gave up trying. Those wheels are still almost high gloss..........on the insides only! I wasnt stupid enough to experiment on outside. Now, flattening base; if you have some, pour a dollop of it onto a surface and let it dry. You will notice it had turned to a white powdery stuff. Thats what is being added to your paint. Thats the cause of grease, oil, dirt, etc... soiling. Flattening base causes a trade off of your desired finish gain VS the loss of durability. This issue exists in all paint types. About now you are probably wondering where you answer is, yeah? Well, its more of a question of choices that decides which paint type is best for you.

Genuine 2 Pack paints.
The 2 Pack paints give a much better durability and long lasting gloss. Gloss obviously NOT desired so a flattening base gets used, thus removing a percentage of the benefit over enamel with hardener. 2 Pack paint is much more difficult to spray, and requires a designated, dust free environment. Though the finish may be almost flat (if you add enough base to the mix) dust nibs and oher contamination will show on the finish. Also the 2 Pack paints are extremely dangerous and the fumes from spraying will damage your lungs, without doubt. Top quality face mask is NOT optional. Much better paint. No question of that, but some of the advantages are lost with trying to achieve low gloss finish, environment it should ideally be applied in, or the ability and experience needed to get a high quality finish.

Enamel paints
Any automotive painter will tell you that enamel paint is inferior to urethanes. In fact, when I say 'urethanes' I refer to several forms of product, each with unique variations that would be difficult to discuss here. Now, the enamels. Much easier to spray, and particularly forgiving when in 'lustreless' or flat form. Still needs a flattening agent or base, regardless of whether its self mix or factory mixed (as mine is). Nowhere near the durability of 2 Pack, but this is much improved with the addition of hardener. An enamel with no hardener is just a sticky mess which takes ages to dry properly, has very bad resiliance to impact or abrasion, can be problematic to recoat in future (especially if using another brand or type of paint), and because it remains tacky for a lot longer.........more contaminants get stuck in th surface. Be warned, you will still need to wear a respirator mask for this paint. It doesnt give off cyanide though, which is airborne with urethanes. In my youthful 'invincible' years I sprayed both types without always botherong to wear a mask, and now suffer accordingly. Let my stupidity then serve as a warning to others. You will not get away unscathed!

My personal choice is the enamel + hardener option. Much easier to use and apply. Its fast drying, and good results can be achieved, even if sprayed outdoors. This has been proven to me on many occasions. I paint everything outside in the open, where the fumes can be dispersed (I still wear a mask though), and parts can be handled gently within a few hours. The 2 Packs really need a heated spray booth for drying correctly. Check through my posts where I have painted something in the morning, then put the parts together later in the day, without damaging the painted surface.

All that is good and well but, as we are painting military vehicles, a finish which is not perfect more accurately reflects how these vehicles would have been done when first built. They would have been full of paint 'runs', surface contaminants, and numerous other flaws. A poor quality paint job would have been the norm. After all, speed of completion was the requirement, not a good finish. The paint they would have used in production would most likely have been a nitrocellulose lacquer or a variation of an enamel produced at the time. The irony is that in production, they would have sprayed a lot of things once the vehicle was almost or fully assembled, resulting in an appaulingly messy finish, with no regard to durability or resistance to damage of any kind. The concerns of succeptability to chemical and physical degradation were not of concern 70 years ago. Having this occur on your vehicle may actually give a more authentic appearance.

One final point. Which ever type of paint you choose, if you use a hardener, there is a fair chance the surface can handle a wipe down with mineral turpentine to get most substances off. You will be wise to test this for yourself, on an unseen area, prior to attempting a full scale clean on outside panels.

My enamel paint (with hardener additive) has served me well, and will actually lose more sheen over time. I also expect it will gain a weathered appearance with use and subsequent cleaning. Thats why I want to spray it as well as I can initially. Time will give me the more authentic aged look.

If you are getting a paint job done professionally, or your vehicle will be getting off-road use (and damage), go for the 2 Pack option. If not, save yourself some trouble and try the enamel. Just dont use enamel without adding the hardener. You'll be sorry in the long run if you do. Well thats my opinion anyway. Others views will vary, no doubt. Paint qualities will vary significantly across brands and types. Protec seems to be universally accepted as one of the more easier/better ones. I can certainly support this from prrsonal experience. I use Barrier type enamel. Its an industrial grade product, more for heavy equipment than, say....a Jaguar.

Hope this helps.

P.S: I cant offer opinion on putting a low sheen clear over solid colors, having never tried it, but I would have thought that a similar surface finish of the clear would sustain staining of contamination also. The clear would definately have to be of same paint brand & type, of course. Just bear in mind that a number of new vehicle manufacturers have moved away from "COB", which stands for Clear over Base, in favor of using the base only without clear top-coat. Base in this case refers to a color, usually metallic, but does not have to be. The down side of this decision is that when machine buffing a metallic finish, the physical abrasion of the cutting compound often leaves swirles visible, and these in turn require further polishing to remove. The same marks are left in a clear coat too, but they are invisible as no pigment is involved in this case. This logic does support the use of clear top-coat to reduce visible marking. I would welcome photos of both methods after a few years, to compare long term results.

[Tony Wheeler]

Thanks very much Tony, that's exactly the kind of info I was seeking and couldn't get from paint companies! Most of them recommended acrylic but I couldn't get a satisfactory explanation as to why.

[Private_collector]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Thanks very much Tony, that's exactly the kind of info I was seeking and couldn't get from paint companies! Most of them recommended acrylic but I couldn't get a satisfactory explanation as to why.

I would suspect the recommendation to acrylic has something to do with it being by far the easiest to prep for and to apply. Also, you can rub it back and spray over again within several hours, if not happy with the result. Acrylic paints have a natural tendency to be a lower sheen finish 'off the gun'. A desirable quality with MV applications. Flattening base significantly lowers the sheen with smaller volume required to do so compared with other paint types. Just be aware that all acrylics are more susceptable to water infultration, as opposed to poly or enamel (with similar flat base in them). And of course, you dont need a spray booth to apply. Its less likely to try and kill you if not wearing an ideal respirator. For the poly paints, we always used a spray hood type which had positive air pressure. Not an easy thing to become acdustomed to wearing, and compressor air STINKS too, take my word for it!

[Tony Wheeler]

Thanks again Tony, sounds like acrylic may have some advantages for an amateur like me. I like the idea of using less flattener too, it strikes me as something to be minimized if possible.

Like you I'll be spraying everything outdoors. That's what I've always done in the past - usually out of necessity for want of a shed! However on the few occasions when I have sprayed panels indoors I've found they tend to attract MORE dust and insects, not less! Plus of course the fumes build up as you mention. As far as I can make out it's preferable in every way to spraypaint outdoors - unless you're running a business of course, in which case you can't always afford to wait for suitable weather!

[Jim Burrill]

If you live on a farm, then the spray is not an issue..

I was painting the tac and div signs on my carrier some years back in my garage with the door open. A neighbor came by all upset that my paint was speckling his car.


Now, he was parked on the alley about 50 yards away, and was pointing out some dots about the size of a period on a printed page. Most were whitish and some words were about to be exchanged, but a few dots were the same color green as I was using for the Reconnaissance Tac sign of green and blue with white numbers.

Now I was painting from a rattle can, so I was rather gobsmacked that the overspray could travel some 50 yards. But I did see colored dots that did match my tac sign.

SO, I spent a good hour with a wooden popsickle stick rubbing out the dots.

Another time, after I moved here, I was painting the Humber A/C with a proper spray gun and realized I was gettign a nice cloud of spray wafting across the road - with the occasional car driving through it. Although no one stopped to complaine, It forced me to hold my spraying to when no traffic was passing, and I had to spend more time watching for cars than I did keeping an eye on my paint coverage.

Next paint job for the Humber will be by brush......

[Private_collector]

Hello Jim,

Very good point! Some paint types worse than others. You wouldn't want to spray any varieties outside in suburbia. Not a problem for me here.

Which ever paint you use, if sprayed outdoors, and neighbours (or their cars etc...) are in proximity, they will get gassed and paint mist will settle in unwanted places.

Im glad you brought this up, Jim. Tony Ws paint shop may be taking his painting environment into account when they encouraged acrylic. Believe it or not, I met my wife as a result of painting a friends car in an enclosed garage that he chose, which belonged to a female friend of his who was sharing a unit with the girl who has now been my wife for nearly 25 years. I was in the process of spraying in the enclosed garage, when she opened the access door and walked in wihout realising the volume of acrylic paint mist inside. Needless to say she didnt hang around in there and retreated ASAP. It was in checking that she was OK that I came to meet her. Do note, it was acrylic paint. If it was poly or enamel, I couldnt have painted in that location. Would have been too unpleasent for those in nearby units etc., and the paint spray would have settled onto the garage floor. Once dried, you would not get it off the concrete. Thats the good thing about acrylic, it dries into a dust while still in the air, and unless it finds something to contaminate close to the place its being sprayed, it is just an annoying smell and lots of powdery dust. Not so simple with the other paint types. Their mist can travel 50 meters of so, while still being able to attach itself to something valuable when it arrives. Once again, not a problem for me here, but the front roller door of my workshop has a texture approaching 240 grit sandpaper, solely because of the enamel paint dust that has settled there.

Tip: to remove paint spray contamination that is not completely dry, use a soft rag with mineral turpentine on it. It works on a variety of surfaces, including vehicles with factory paint or repainted with anything other than enamel. You can even use it over enamel, so long as hardener was used and surface was not freshly painted.

Theres lots of consideration to achieving a good paint job!

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Jim Burrill

A neighbor came by all upset that my paint was speckling his car....I spent a good hour with a wooden popsickle stick rubbing out the dots.

You've just reminded me of a similar experience Jim, when I sprayed my first car at the age of 17, a Wolseley 1500. I sprayed it outdoors in British Racing Green, and my mother's pale green Austin 1800 was parked in the driveway barely 10 metres away. A couple of weeks later my father was washing it when he suddenly noticed millions of BRG dots all over one side! It was such an even coat you couldn't see it until you got real close. He was absolutely ropable, especially when we discovered it couldn't be removed with turps after so long. In the end it had to be rubbed off with a cloth and car polish, which took me the best part of a day's hard labour!

I'm glad you raised it Jim as I'll need to be careful if it can travel 50 metres and still stick to things. My neighbour often parks his brand new 4WD in the driveway, and it's white!

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Gina,

While looking on g503.com, I found the post which made me wonder if your marking was USMC.

Have a look here (page 2 in particular). The scanned page of shapes in the post from Mark Tombleson is what im referring to.
http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php...33622&start=15

Cheers,
Ian.

[Mrs Vampire]

so this from the archives .

Australian camouflage information can be had at the Australian archives. Look for MP222/1 series
so MP222/1 13D part 1
then 13 A, B, C, D, E, F, G,
then MP222/1 part 2 , 3 and 4

That covers the information for pre 1942 , 1942 two tone disruptive and 1943 three tone disruptive . The files speak of types of paint problems with application and orders as to who should apply it.

http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx

go to advanced search and put in the numbers

[Mrs Vampire]

I am all miserable again.

O ordered the humbrol paints as listed earlier in this thread and in other places in MLU.

I mixed them up using measure then using weight.

The green pre 1942 is reminiscent of the colour on the Vickers Mk IV B so I think that is OK but its very dark.

Both the Stuart and the FGT are clearly not that colour. But the mix for the post 1942 green is way too dark. I have some places in the FGT that are pristine ( the lockers in the back and places like that ) and on the Stuart under some of the fittings I have unbolted.

Both the FGT and the Stuart seem to be the same base green colour though the Stuart even when rubbed back is clearly faded tending to whiten off .

The Vietnam era green is closer than the mix of humbrol paints I made for the post 1942 green. So now I guess I have to do a colour match on the pristine parts of the FGT...so I will remove a door and see if I can get a formula for that colour and use that as my base green for both vehicles.

Mikes formula for the light stone is crisper than the colour on the tank but it seems about right given the Tank has faded. I am happy to go with it... I think

Trouble is of all the events I have been to and all the museums visited I have never seen tanks painted in the schemes I will use I have only seen old B&W photos ... maybe I will paint up a model or something but it seems they will they look quite startling.