Death of the Royal Canadian Armour Corps

[George Wallace]

Friday, 28 March 2003. This afternoon 'B' Sqn of the Royal Canadian Dragoons drove their Leopard 1 C2 Main Battle Tanks down the main street of Pembroke, Ontario, for the last time. Members of the Regiment, past and present, lined the streets as LCol Milner lead the column of tanks through town on the way to the Railhead, where they will be transported out West to Wainwright, Alberta, and left.

LCol Dean Milner's father was Commanding Officer in the late 1970's when the RCDs accepted their first Leopards. Now, as a strange twist of fate, he has the unpleasant task of saying goodbye to them.

While in Wainwright the RCD will operate two Squadrons of tanks for the 2CMBG Brigade Training Event, and will conduct a final 'Farewell' parade for the Leopards on completion of that training. They will return to CFB Petawawa in May without their 'mounts'.

This now leaves the Royal Canadian Armour Corps without a tank and a reason d'etre. It effectively destroys the Combat Team, leaving the faith of the Corps and Army in question.

Is this the Chretein Legacy?

[Mark W. Tonner]

George;

I had heard a month or two ago, that both the RCD and 12 RBC were losing their tanks, apparently all the tanks are going to the LdSH, who'll be a 3x Squadron Leopard equipped Regiment, with the RCD and 12 RBC reverting to light armoured vehicles. The only tank squadron that will be left, east of Alberta, is the Squadron in Gagetown, in support of the Armoured School.

Your right, it is a very sad state of affairs, one bloody tank equipped regiment and than you have to think, how many of them are actually runners?

Ottawa spend money on the Forces, especially this current Government............their still trying to figure out what our troops on exchange are doing.

Through the mud and the blood, to the green fields beyond.............there went the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps and another piece of the Canadian Army's history down the drain.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

If the current war in Iraq is 'the shape of things to come' for western armies (and I'm afraid it may be, for at least another generation), this disgraceful action couldn't come at a worse time.

Worse still, it seems to be happening quietly... and eerily, given the current controversy over the state of our armed forces and the issue of supporting our friends in time of need, it seems to presage the total, peaceful, self-destruction of the Canadian Army as an entity.

These ... despicable ... people have gone too far this time. This needs to be made public in the widest possible sense.

Methinks I'm going to drop Peter Worthington a line, just to start. It surely can't hurt.

I can't help but think of some of the Armoured Corps vets of WW2... it was only a year ago that I was down here visiting a local Kangaroo-friend, and we stumbled onto a reunion of 1st Hussars at Wolseley Barracks. Fine old gentlemen who drank my wallet empty and were STILL, at their age, dyed-in-the-wool tankers! THIS is the tradition we appear to be chucking out the bloody window with nary a thought. For those of them, and those like them, who might be aware of this, I can't imagine what it must feel like.

Disgraceful.

Thanks for the heads-up, George.

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Do you guys mean to tell me that THIS has not been made public??Even after the Seaking aging controversy?What's next?Phasing out the Field Artillary?Mothballing more CF-18's?Elections are coming & as GWB states on his thread,is this is a Chretien legacy combined with his indifference to the new world order that's developing out there in front of our eyes.Iam totally shocked & embarressed by this latest news.Mr Martin ,with an election coming,has some explaining to do to the electorate.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I know we have a few here, and there must be more among the incredible herd of lurkers which haunts this place daily. I recognize you may not wish to post publicly for any number of reasons (including active service restrictions as applicable), and if so, I invite you to submit directly to me - in the strictest confidence of course - your thoughts and observations on the subject. No names will EVER be revealed, and all quotes, if used, will be effectively sanitized as to be untraceable.

BTW, this forum is set up such that your ID and registered email address is entirely transparent to anyone outside. The Administrators are the only ones here who have direct contact to you, making this as secure as any internet application can be.

You may use my corporate email address: sunray@mapleleafup.org

...or my corporate snail mail address:

Geoff Winnington-Ball
MAPLE LEAF UP
P.O. Box 8056,
1225 Wonderland Road North,
London, ON N6G 2V9

Thank you. Let's hope that together, we can at least make a ripple in this stagnant pond of political apathy...

[Bob Potter]

Now I realize that a tank might not be much good in the Bay of Fundy, but when the descendants of the hippies and flower children start streaming across the Plains into Manitoba and Saskasatchawan (I'm sorry for what I just did to that), how do you intend to turn them back? Or is Tyrone Power still in the Mounties?

In all seriousness, this story is certainly news to me on my side of the border. Is this an attempt to reconstruct Canada's armed forces to preclude any participation in any peacekeeping or "other" intervention around the world. This sort of reminds me of the US in 1940 when we had fewer tanks than Brazil or some similar place.

Will the Leopards appear on eBay?

Bob

[Don Dingwall]

For more than 5 years I have been in touch with various members of the Forces about this, both officially and otherwise. I've also had "more than one" serving armour officer (serving regimental CO's in fact) contact me asking various opinions on this topic.

The situation is thus (distilled to save bandwidth....):

-wheeled AFV's have become the "flavour of the month", in many countries mostly due to lower initial cost, easier maintainablity, air transport, training and wear and tear.
Plus they look cool. Don't laugh. They don't look nasty like tanks do, so we aren't seen as being "aggressive".

-the Leo C2 nearly did not come about at all. There was talk some years back that the Leos would not upgraded at all, and the LAV fleet expanded and the Leos sold off (hey, I need a dozer tank!). If the Leo C2 (all but useless really when it comes to Canada....when would we EVER deploy them, and if so, HOW? Can't rent ALL the Antonovs after all!). The idea was that we would not be engaging in high intensity conflicts anyway as a result of national political policy, so why invest in the Leo upgrade--a result of the misguided optimism of the non-existent "peace dividend".

-it is HIGHLY unlikely that we will buy tanks again in the near future (barring earth shaking international developments of course). With the succession of Liberal governments (not likely to change due to lack of an effective alternative party or leader) likely to remain unbroken for the forseeable future, this is almost a certainty anyway.

-the concept of light brigade concept is also not new, and has been experimented with before in this country. (good God, that traitorous, neo-Marxist, sandal clad, bike riding, tree hugging commie pinko flower child Trudeau had his bureaucrats investigating the idea that Scorpions and Scimitars were effective replacements for the Centurion in the 70's!! That must have been a holdover from PET's many turns at the hookah.....)

-as a result of this change of doctrine, it is as well also likely that our armour guys may even see MORE deployments (worrisome to say the least to serving individuals), as WAFV's don't look like tanks, and therefore not as "war like" on the 6 o'clcock news, and they can be moved much easier, and more often, for fewer dollars. And seeing as though most liberals want to be the next UN GS, this is just good PR. We'd be sending "light" vehicles, not those nasty tanks. It's all about appearance. We have to be seen as saving the world you know......

-I have had "more than one" armour officer (and God knows how many troopers ) tell me they think this idea is essentially whacked, but in the end they know it IS inevitable for the forseeable future. They are taking it in stride, as they have to. And for the time being, they will retain their tanks and the training, albeit limited, that goes with it.

Now to reiterate the obvious, YES we all know that tanks are NOT dead, they have NOT been shoved from the battlefield as I had one idiot friend suggest to me the other day (don't worry, he's since been disposed of in an especially brutal manner).
We here on MLU also know full well that they are still, and will be for the forseeable future, a viable and superior battlefield weapons delivery system, but the current reality is such that WAFV will be prevalent in most small to mid size countries. And we are NOT a large country by any stretch, except in terms of square miles of unpopulated nothingness and vacuous voters.

It is a done deal. The Armoured Corps is lucky they still have tanks at all (and they know it). I speak not from conjecture on this. It was a very near thing that Leos would be gone entirely if it weren't for the fact that we just recently spent millions upgrading them.

This is pretty much the only way the Forces can buy time till the political climate changes, and in the interim, still keep our tracked tank capability and "corporate knowledge" of them.

And finally remember a few points:

-Liberals will be there for at least the next 4 years. And unless Paul Martin suddenly shifts to the right due to a blow to the head, his defence policy won't be much different from what it is now.
-the only thing that would conceivably change the attitude of apathetic, dumbass Canadian voters, who will always vote for the status quo, is if someone directly attacks Canada. Unlikely maybe, but that's also what the Liberals are doing--not pissing anyone off because we're so nice and don't support our friends and Allies like we should.

Don

[Jon Skagfeld]

Further to the decision to relegate Armour to the dust bin, is anyone aware of the recent move to remove mortars from Inf Bns and place them in Arty units?

As I understand it, the Arty units don't want mortars, the Inf Bns are quite upset about losing same, and they now have to pretty well have to go through more comm nets in order to order their own indirect fire and FDF, also, what happens to all the advanced mortar types (Inf MFCs?). Looks like more room for confusion on the battlefield. Mortars have always been organic to an Inf Bn, whether a 60 mm at Pl level or an 81 mm at Bn level. Inf doctrine has always included the use of mortars in all four phases of warfare.

Any MOC 031s out there (Tonner?), or Golf call signs like to comment?

[Snowtractor]

Good to see that Cretien is listening to the US ambassador...you know that part where he said that the US would come to our aid during a threat whether real or precieved, no debate needed? So having that reassurance Cretien can get rid of the last of those nasty metal boxes.
Does anyone remember Martin's statement to the media last year to the effect that he doesn't even know why we need tanks anymore? He certainly isn't going to be any more generous to them once he is elected...
Again , my thoughts are Canada should established a fully intregrated unit with a mix of heavy and light armour and infantry and artillery with some Apaches and ground strike aircraft, A-10's are outstanding value for their punch. Now we don't have to have 1 million men in uniform but at least , should the need arise we could be effective in the field as a fully independant Brigade ( or whatever size). NO we can come but we need this this and this. If its a small commitment so be it, but it would be a damned effective one given Canadians soldiers skill at war fighting....if you want peace keeping send a cop.
Sean

[Mark W. Tonner]

Jon;

I've heard of the plan to take the 81mm Mortar Platoons out of the Battalions and they becoming Arty assets, but to the best of my knowledge, this hasn't happened yet, though I've heard that 2 RCHA does have an 81mm Troop. I wasn't a Mortarman, so I'm a bit out of my depth on this one. But what you said is true, the 81mm Platoon is the only indirect-fire support weapon that a Battalion Commander and Battalion has right at hand when its needed.

I've also heard talk of the current 81mm being improved upon or being done away with altogether and being replaced, but with what, I don't know.

Myself, I'm retired from it now, but I'll tell you one thing, if someone in Ottawa doesn't soon grow a set of 'NOVEMBER UNIFORM TANGO's' and steps-up and puts a stop to the down hill spiral that the state of the Forces is in soon, well...............

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Don Dingwall
-wheeled AFV's have become the "flavour of the month", in many countries mostly due to lower initial cost, easier maintainablity, air transport, training and wear and tear.
Plus they look cool. Don't laugh. They don't look nasty like tanks do, so we aren't seen as being "aggressive".

Don, are you aware that at least one of our Ontario Armoured Corps militia units has been stripped of their Grizzlys and is being re-equipped with... wait for it... hold on... ATVs?

A famous armoured regiment, reduced to riding toys to fulfil their "armoured recce" function. Gawdalmighty.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Although it may be a bit off topic of this thread, the following quotes are from an article by Rory Leishman that appeared in this mornings London Free Press. The article itself deals with whether the war in Iraq is worth it or not, but the quotes that appear at the end of the article deal with the current state of the Canadian Forces.

Quote:

"U.S. Army chief of staff, has estimated 'something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers' will be required to keep the peace in liberated Iraq. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld reportedly thinks closer to 100,000 troops will surfice.

What can Canada contribute to this huge, vital and humanitarian, peacekeeping operation? Pracitically nothing. Over the last 30 years, successive Liberal and Progressive Conservative governments have reduced the once powerful Canadian Armed Forces to such a pitiful state that the Canadian army will be hard-pressed just to meet the recent commitment by the Chretien government to assign up to 2,000 troops to peacekeeping for a year in Afghanistan.

Defence Minister John McCallum has admitted 'Having made a substantial commitment to Afghanistan, we will not be in a position to send substantial ground troops for a year or more to any other country'. That's the hard truth.

Militarily, Canada is a virtual non-entity. The Canadian army is now so weak that it could contribute little either to liberation or peacekeeping in Iraq. What a shame." End of Quote .

I've heard of this 'keeping ground troops in Canada for the next year or so', since shortly after it was annouced that the 3 PPCLI Battle Group was coming home and not being replaced by another Canadian Battalion Battle Group. My question is, what do they expect to do or accomplish in this 'year or so' time frame? How in 365 or 730 days, do they expect to fix the problem of the current state of the Forces (army in particular), after the neglect of the past 30 years? Given that a Battalion Battle Group has just deployed on rotation to Bosnia and given that the 'up to 2,000 troops' for Afghanistan (this summer) will probably be based on a Battalion Battle Group, what's left here in Canada to fix? With one Battle Group deployed to Bosnia and one to Afghanistan, that leaves here: 1x Brigade Group (with all it's assets?), plus 2x Brigade Groups (minus one of their Battle Groups (+), each). Does the Minister maybe really believe in 'Santa'?...........:

End of rant.................................

Forgot to add this little tidbit, which really is the 'Bottom of the Barrel', recently, to send an Infantry Security Platoon (35(+) personnel) to the Gulf region to protect Canadian Forces assets there, (3x Hercs and...?) the men for the Platoon had to be drawn from two Battalions, we can't even come up with a Platoon of men from the same Battalion now????,............... :

[Don Dingwall]

Did the infantry battalions not also lose their pioneer platoons recently as well to save money?

Don

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Don, are you aware that at least one of our Ontario Armoured Corps militia units has been stripped of their Grizzlys and is being re-equipped with... wait for it... hold on... ATVs?

A famous armoured regiment, reduced to riding toys to fulfil their "armoured recce" function. Gawdalmighty.

Armoured Recce units are going to the G-Wagen - are the ATVs an interim measure until the Iltis can be replaced with the G-Wagen?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Don;

(You to Jon, this concerns the Mortar Platoon also)

In regards to your question: "Did the infantry battalions not also lose their pioneer platoons recently as well to save money?".

Not yet, as far as I know the battalions still have their assault pioneer platoons, but for how much longer, I don't know. I have also heard of the plan to have this asset (tasks) disappear from an infantry battalions support company and be handled by combat engineer assets.

Have this link to the DND/Army website that explains the Land Forces Commander's 'Army Strategy'. This was also published in booklet form last May (2002). Basicly, it's what the 'Army of Tommorrow' will look like. Website:

http://www.army.forces.ca/strategy/E.../strathome.asp

This is what it says regarding Mortar and Assault Pioneer Platoon assets being withdrawn from the Infantry Battalions:

The Army is deliberately reducing engineering and indirect fire capability in order to afford improvements to command and control and ISTAR. The transfer of the pioneer and mortar tasks to the engineers and artillery respectively will result in overall savings in manpower which will be directed to modernization objectives. There will also be some reduction in the complexity of structure and training for the infantry corps. The intent is not to prejudice tactical operations and, subject to requirements, units will have these capabilities available. However, they will be generated differently than in the past. This will require changes to the organizations of infantry, artillery and engineers, as well as a significant change in their training regimes to produce optimally effective units.

And about the Leopard Squadrons:

Heavier combat assets such as tanks, medium guns and elements of armoured engineers will be concentrated in LFWA. Three Leopard tank squadrons now in three brigades will be concentrated into one tank regiment in LFWA. The regiment will be based on three tank and one recce squadrons. Concentrating tank expertise will improve maintenance and resource overhead and will give the Canadian Manoeuvre Training Centre to be built at Wainwright more flexibility in the use of this equipment. CTC tanks are not affected - Gagetown will keep its tank allocation and support.

With the move of Leopards from the armoured regiments of 2 and 5 CMBGs, these regiments will convert to reconnaissance regiments based on two Coyote squadrons each. The Army will explore ways to improve this reconnaissance and surveillance capability as part of the evolving ISTAR plan. Recce regiment HQs will maintain the capability to be employed as an all arms battle group headquarters, not just a recce regiment HQ.

Regarding Mortars & Pioneers, I'm going to contact an old 'still serving bud' tomorrow and find out if these assets have in fact been taken away yet or reduced in any way. I'll post my findings.

Cheers

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Challenger 14 v T-57 0.....we need to sell some new tanks so why not buy some British ones M. Prime Minister?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Guys;

Have an answer regarding the fate of Infantry Battalion Mortar and Assault Pioneer Platoons - they are now "GONE", although a limited pioneer asset is still available, to some degree, through the Battalion's Trade Pioneers (for those Battalions that have Trade Pioneer shops). In regards to the Mortars, the Adnvanced Mortar Cell at the Infantry School Gagetown is even gone now, so there went the expertise if there is ever a decision made to reverse this sad state of affairs. Within the Battalions themselves, neither Mortar or Assault Pioneer courses exist anymore. Just to note, the person who advanced all these changes to the Canadian Army, or I should say, who "Ripped the Guts" out of it, is now retired, but Ottawa bought his 'song & dance' and are 'merrily' continuing on with his plan............

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Don, are you aware that at least one of our Ontario Armoured Corps militia units has been stripped of their Grizzlys and is being re-equipped with... wait for it... hold on... ATVs?

A famous armoured regiment, reduced to riding toys to fulfil their "armoured recce" function. Gawdalmighty.

Geoff: I sure you meant to say "Cougars" that have been taken from an Armoured Recce unit. The "Grizzly" is used by Mech Inf in much the same manner as M113s(i.e. battlefield taxis). It features the Cadillac-Gage 1 meter, one man turret containing 1 x .50 cal HMG and 1 x 7.62mm GPMG. The Cougar is (or was supposed to be a tank-trainer, never to be used operationally) featuring a 76mm gun in its 2 man turret. Both, and a recovery variant, were all based on the 6 wheel Piranha hull.

Just a small correction, Sunray, gotta keep you in line.

[George Wallace]

Just a couple of quick comments.

Don.

I know that wheels are the flavour of the month and look cool, but so far they have failed miserably. Will LFWC be the only units to be able to effectively train as Combat Teams? From our experience here, LAV IIIs cannot keep up to tanks cross country due to their tendency to get bogged. How will 2 and 5 CMBGs be able to effecetively do 'War Training' if they do not have tanks or the ability to move cross-country? (Please God--don't anyone bring up the LAV AG or LAV 105!)

I notice in the news that it is tanks that are doing all the major 'killing' in ground combat in Iraq. I also notice that the press have a tendency to call anything with a turret a tank.

Canada has, oppossed to what has been stated in the press, deployed tanks overseas. I don't mean Germany; I mean to Bosnia, Macedonia and Kosovo. The Leo Is showed their worth in Kosovo, in that they were able to get into areas that the larger M1, Chieftan, and Leo IIs could not. The wheeled Centaro that the Italians sent there proved useless on the mud tracks that predominate a war torn area.

When the Defence Minister announces in the press that "we don't need 'Rambos', we need 'Computer Geeks'" we get the idea of where we are going.

All 'Heavy' assets are being moved out West--Armour, Arty and Engineer.

GW