AUS CMP tyre loading ramp

[BSM]

Mainly a question for knowledgeable Aust. CMP owners/MLU members however any assistance would be appreciated. The first attached image displays the spare wheel loading technique and apparatus used on a range of CMPs by 2nd AIF troops during WW2. After the tyre was in place the ramp was stowed under it with the raised section at the end assisting in keeping the tyre in place. The ramp in this instance is a single piece of equipment and the vehicle width at this point was sufficient to accept the ramp length when stowed.

The Australian No.6. Artillery Tractor was designed to tow the Bofors 40mm AA gun after the supply of British Bedford tractors dried up early in the War. It is basically a C60S cab chassis with a locally designed crew cab and stowage binning. All No.6. tractors were fitted with winches.

At the front of the crew cab there is a compartment for a lorry wheel on the left and another for the spare Bofors wheel on the right, drivers side. There is no accommodation for any type of ramp. Documentation on this aspect is yet to surface however I am of the opinion that some form of ramp existed and the most likely stowage spot is between the crew cab and the brake man's seat on the rear deck as shown in image 2. The third image is believed to be one of the securing brackets for such a device.

Problem here is that the available width is insufficient to accept a ramp of the type shown in the first image, basically too short. The contention therefore is that if there was a ramp stowed in said position then it would have been made in 2 sections, either hinged or joined somehow. Can anyone shed some light on this topic.
Thanks in advance....Rod

[Bob McNeill]

could it be similar to the No 9 guntractor and fitted to side of unit by clamps ??

[BSM]

Bob, check out the new image. Other side is the same. Nowhere obvious that you could attach anything along the sides. The long door accesses three ammo lockers and you wouldn't want anything unnecessary hanging there. Do you have a pic of the No.9. type you describe and is it a single piece construction? Regards ... Rod

[Bob McNeill]

Could be fitted any where as it doesn,t have ramp on end, only 1,1/2" thick.

[cliff]

looking at the underneath of the spare tyre in your photo BSM and as I have the same photos it is possible that the exact same type of ramp as a normal CMP was fitted.

[BSM]

Thanks Bob and Cliff. Bob I take your point but I still do not see an attachment point and I have the advantage as I have the Tractor. Same deal Cliff, each tyre compartment is separated and does not have the depth for the "ladder" assembly you allude to. Please see attached image. Regards...Rod

[Harry Moon]

Not to hijack the thread but don't those wheels on that CMP look like the ones on my 20CWT trailer that I'm looking for?

[cliff]

Rod I have looked at all my photos again and it appears the spare wheel sits higher then the compartment floor so perhaps it is one of 2 things.

First it may be just a short ramp to allow the crew to get the tyre down to a safer level to lift

or

It was a telescoping ramp in two parts unlike the normal CMP one.

[Harry Moon]

Thats the best picture of the tire rack assembly i've come across. It'll certainly help fabricating one.
The ramp is only as long as it is to reach that bottom "C" channel the bars lined up with it above the "C" channel is not the same piece and is a flatbar fixed in place.
As to the tires... That truck would have duals on the back if it has those wheels I would hazard..

[lynx42]

Rod, Maybe the gun crew just lifted it into position.

There was always plenty of manpower available to manhandle the gun etc. Is there anything in the description about the No.6 usage directions. (and NO I don't have a copy, I don't even know if one exists.)

The No.6. is certainly looking good.

Regards Rick.

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Harry Moon

As to the tires... That truck would have duals on the back if it has those wheels I would hazard..

The #6 bofers tractor had single wheels all round as did all other models of Australian CMP except SWB tippers which often (not always) had civilian pattern duals on the rear. I have photos of tippers with civilian pattern rims and tyres, Duals at the rear and tippers with singles all round, combat rims and directional tyres. All Aussie tippers were based on the 134in SWB 3 ton chassis.

[Keith Webb]

I have seen post-war pics of No6 CGTs fitted with dual rear wheels, a field mod no doubt. One of the more interesting roles for surplus No6 bofors tractors was removal of the rear body and addition of a crane for conversion to "Metropolitan wreckers".

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by cliff

The #6 bofors tractor had ..... .

...A unique Aussie design body on the 134in SWB 3 ton chassis. The UK/Cdn LAAT used a more conventional body design that included provision for a spare 40mm Barrel to be carried under the body and stowed from the rear.

As carrying a spare barrel is desirable for an automatic weapon such as the Bofors, is there provision on the Aust No6 Tractor for a spare barrel to be stowed from the rear of the body, and would/could a tyre ramp have been carried in the same way?

[lynx42]

Yes Tony,
The spare barrel is carried straight up the middle of the body and loaded through the two rear doors. There are rollers all the way up to the front of the body to allow for the easy removal/replacement.
regards Rick.

[BSM]

Harry they are ex Unimog, 10.50x20's, purchased on ebay from a fellow up North. AUD350 for 5 plus 2x winter treads which we passed on. Not the best profile but necessary. Rod

Originally Posted by Harry Moon

Not to hijack the thread but don't those wheels on that CMP look like the ones on my 20CWT trailer that I'm looking for?

[BSM]

Cliff I have been corresponding with a chap in Sydney who actually drove them in the early 50's. He vaguely remembers such a two piece ladder/ramp on the deck area in the above image. He also remembers the tried and proven method of simply turning it loose and wait until it stops bouncing. In a Unit I was in we had an old International (long nose) semi trailer and the spare was bolted to the curved front section and we used a similar method to dismount the wheel.
There is no room for a ramp under the tyres in either compartment. There is a large pivoting arm mounted at the top of both which prevents lateral movement and each has a steel chock at the bottom with sliding bolts that accept a padlock to secure and hold the wheel in the other direction.

Re your "standard" CMP, 2 piece suggestion...here again I haven't seen an example. The images so far indicate a single piece construction. Add to this is the recent comment from the chap I mentioned above that they recently traded a spare wheel assembly from North Head and it had a single piece ramp. Rod

Originally Posted by cliff

Rod I have looked at all my photos again and it appears the spare wheel sits higher then the compartment floor so perhaps it is one of 2 things.

First it may be just a short ramp to allow the crew to get the tyre down to a safer level to lift

or

It was a telescoping ramp in two parts unlike the normal CMP one.

[BSM]

Be interested to see such an image if you trip over same Keith. Rod

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

I have seen post-war pics of No6 CGTs fitted with dual rear wheels, a field mod no doubt. One of the more interesting roles for surplus No6 bofors tractors was removal of the rear body and addition of a crane for conversion to "Metropolitan wreckers".

[Harry Moon]

Originally Posted by BSM

Harry they are ex Unimog, 10.50x20's, purchased on ebay from a fellow up North. AUD350 for 5 plus 2x winter treads which we passed on. Not the best profile but necessary. Rod

Not your wheels and tires but the wheels in the picture of the tire carrier in Australia. Exact same wheels on the loading ramp and the front wheel of the CMP. Same as on my thread of looking for a spare for my 20 CWT trailer.

[Harry Moon]

Not sure where this came from but I believe a collection in Europe.
Looks to be a tow-truck but it is definitely the exact same tire carrier this time with a regular 20 inch CMP wheel.

[Harry Moon]

Different truck, same tire carrier.

[BSM]

Harry, wrong wheels ....noted and that is a nice 6 wheeler. Have a different set of ramp images to post but they are buried somewhere "safe" for the time being.
Tony carrying on from Ric's comment please note the attached images. MLU1 is an earlier pic showing the stowage areas from the rear and MLU2 is the almost finished item. It is of course feasible that the ramp as such would possibly fit in with the spare barrel however the spring assembly on the barrel is large, the barrel is very heavy and it would have been packed with something to stop lateral movement when the vehicle was in motion. Another question to be answered. I would say that the suggestion remains open to debate for the time being! MLU2 is a rear shot of the Tractor at a recent display. It traveled on a Main Roads permit. The vehicle is now registered - heavy rigid etc. And thanks for the compliment Ric. Rod

Originally Posted by lynx42

Yes Tony,
The spare barrel is carried straight up the middle of the body and loaded through the two rear doors. There are rollers all the way up to the front of the body to allow for the easy removal/replacement.
regards Rick.

[Harry Moon]

Which one or both? Are wrong. The 20CWT wheels look and are the same as other Canadian trailers in Canada's Fighting Vehicles.
Why would the Australian Army make up a manual or picture of the tire Carrier with an oddball truck unless they were more common than thought. In my Pictures From The Reynolds Collection in Alberta there at least 6 trucks with those Dually's front and back.

[Mike Cecil]

Gents,

The image per Harry Moon listed as 'possible collection in Europe' was taken inside the Melbourne Tank Museum, Australia, and is on a CMP based wrecker. The tyre carrier of this design is unique to Aust production. Note also the Centurion ARV Mk2 in the background.

The period image with the tyre ramp and 'conventional' wheels is of an Australian tipper, viz, 'Truck, 3 ton, Tipper, 2-1/2 to 3 Cu Yd'. There were four main marks (and a number or sub-marks, depending upon the hoist fitted): the early timber bodied version had standard CMP wheels, later versions had 8.25x20 tyres on conventional rims: singles at front, duals at rear. The front wheels could be 'dualled' if the terrain required it. The latter wheels were also retrofitted to the early version from time to time, so there is no hard and fast rule about their fitment. In Australia, the tippers were the only CMP during the war to be fitted with conventional wheels and 8.25x20 tyres as standard that I'm aware of.

The 'Tractor, Artillery, Aust No.6' (the Aust LAA tractor) was originally fitted with standard CMP wheels, but post war (they lasted until the late 50s), many of those remaining in service were converted to dual rear wheels. In 'Take Post', the story of the 18th LAA Regt, there is a 1955 colour image of two No.6 tractors: one with, and one without dual rear wheels.

Early Aust CMP 20-inch wheel stowage did not include a tyre/wheel ramp: this was a modification introduced in late 1943. Earlier production mounts not fitted with a ladder were not modified. It is therefore concievable that at least early production No.6 tractors were not equipped with any form of ramp to assist with stowage of the spare.

The Aust CMP 16-inch wheel carrier was not fitted with a ramp.

There is also the complication that a number of tactical trucks were designed without stowage for a spare, on the basis that they were to be fitted with RF tyres. When the fitting of RF tyres was discontinued (rubber shortages), the dilema was where to put the spare. The 'Tractor, Artillery Aust. No.8' is a case in point, and you will see images with the spare slung onto the roof. Apparently, there were enough men in a gun crew riding in the artillery tractor to achieve this by brute strength! The No.9 tractor was fitted with both a spare (carried inside the rear body, right side) and a stowage ladder (stowed on the outside on the right).

Mike C

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Harry Moon

Why would the Australian Army make up a manual or picture of the tire Carrier with an oddball truck unless they were more common than thought.

Hi Harry,

It's my guess they just picked the nearest truck and it happened to be a tipper! They were produced in considerable numbers here (judging by the number of survivors) so it's not particularly unlikely. I'm sure Mike is correct in saying: "In Australia, the tippers were the only CMP during the war to be fitted with conventional wheels and 8.25x20 tyres as standard that I'm aware of."

I guess it's possible that dual wheels occasionally found their way onto non-tippers in the field, as seems to have been the case in post war years as mentioned by Keith: "I have seen post-war pics of No6 CGTs fitted with dual rear wheels, a field mod no doubt." However I don't recall seeing any wartime pics of duals on non-tippers.

After disposal of course a great many CMPs were fitted with duals for road use, mostly by dealers I suspect, who offered customers a choice of singles or duals (see ad below). It seems there were several different types used, and I happen to have a couple of the type pictured on the spare tyre ramp. These came off an F60L wreck. As you can see they have 6 cutouts in the wheel centre, unlike yours which have 5 cutouts. I suspect the 20cwt trailers may have used early Ford wheels - I'll post some pics shortly which may help identify.

Cheers,
Tony

[Harry Moon]

I see your wheels are 8 stud and look like they would fit on a standard CMP brake and hub.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

I suspect the 20cwt trailers may have used early Ford wheels - I'll post some pics shortly which may help identify.

These may not be much help Harry but they're all I can find at present as I don't often photograph commercial trucks.

First two pics appear to show early Ford wheels and hubs fitted to Ford CMP axle, which is fitted to Chev CMP chassis!

Following two pics appear to show early Ford axle fitted to cut-down Studebaker chassis with original tipper, converted into a trailer!

Wheel centres look very similar to yours....not sure about rim width though.

[Keith Webb]

I suspect this pic may have been published in one of the regular pamphlets which introduced new equipment into service. There are other pics of loading a CMP wheel using the standard ramp.

There's a lot of careful photo retouching in this pic, a fairly normal practice at the time, it was a real art.

[Tony Wheeler]

On second thoughts...I have no idea what this tipper/trailer used to be! One for the experts...

[cliff]

Almost looks like a Chev 4X4 tipper body

[Mike Cecil]

Standard US production all steel base body.

The rear view shows the lower coaming, half cut away, with the remaining half with the taillamp recess/aperture.

Keith's image: note the soldier has a 9 Infantry Division colour patch (2nd version).

Mike C