Australian production numbers

Keith Webb · #1 16-07-04, 21:46

We know from a post by Mike Kelly on the old forum quoting figures from Norm Darwin's book:

"The History of Holden book written by Norm Darwin ( 1983) has the Woodville production figures up to 1943 . Included in the 1943 figures are : 134 gun tractor bodies . It doesn't say what type , they may be number 8 or the bofors LAA body .

Woodville was always Holdens main body plant from the beginning . I think the Bend was for mainly assembling chassis/mechanicals and making special bodies . They also had other assembly plants in Sydney and other places ?

Also listed for Woodville up to and including 1943 are :
1200 CWO wireless sigs bodies
6108 CWO cabs closed( canadian War office )
2069 CWO cabs roadster ( the sunshine roof cab ?)
351 CWO Box Ambulance
163 CWO 6 seater utility"

We also know that about 400 No 8 and 9 gun tractors from both manufacturers were built, but can anyone shed light on the total manufactured here in Australia?

Has anyone done any more research on the individual types from both GM-H and Ford?

It appears from this list to the end of 43 for Holden that about 10,000 were built there, if we assume an equal quantity from Ford then add another couple of years of production we come up with a wild guess something like 50,000?

cliff · #2 16-07-04, 23:32

the 351 ambulance box bodies is interesting. I wonder what type they were.

the Australian pattern with the canvas screen at the rear or the other type with closing rear doors?

hmmm may have to do some research on that aspect of it if I can.

Keith Webb · #3 17-07-04, 00:21

Quote:

Originally posted by cliff
the 351 ambulance box bodies is interesting. I wonder what type they were.

the Australian pattern with the canvas screen at the rear or the other type with closing rear doors?

hmmm may have to do some research on that aspect of it if I can.

Cliff, These would be the early Indian Army type with the canvas awning at the rear. Only Holden built those and only Ford built the other later type on the F30 chassis.

Whilst many of the Fords have survived, none of the Holden ones have, as far as I know. I wonder which WO designation they had.

A possible candidate is WO30 which was for medium wheelbase Chevs, and we even have one with a contract number: S/M 2127.

I wonder whether David can shed any light?

cliff · #4 17-07-04, 01:25

Keith I have seen a couple of pics of CMP type ambulances with rear opening doors and am pretty sure they were AIF units. This is why I though about what type the 351 are.

Attached a pic of the interior of a Chev 3 ton ambulance with rear opening doors. of course I could be wrong and it may be a Canadian model.

I am sorry I am not sure where I got this pic from.

Keith Webb · #5 17-07-04, 01:42

Quote:

Originally posted by cliff
Keith I have seen a couple of pics of CMP type ambulances with rear opening doors and am pretty sure they were AIF units. This is why I though about what type the 351 are.

Attached a pic of the interior of a Chev 3 ton ambulance with rear opening doors. of course I could be wrong and it may be a Canadian model.

I am sorry I am not sure where I got this pic from.

The C29Q is a Ford designation.

cliff · #6 17-07-04, 08:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Webb
The C29Q is a Ford designation.

HMMM I can see another Ford CMP going on the list with V8 motor etc. Called 'Ambulance Ford C29Q'

It will go well with my Chev Aussie Pattern

Cliff

PS> would this have been a #13 cab or earlier?

David_Hayward (RIP) · #7 17-07-04, 10:43

1. Ford Model C29Q..F30 or F60S
2. S/M 2127: TRUCK 3 TON 4 X 4 134 IN. WHEELBASE
FOR AUSTRALIA [C60S]
E.g. 2844200207S 2844200208M ENGINE #PR3780477 1942

Ford Model Number C018QF or C298QF [Australia] E.g. # 3G-7606 # 12 [and # 13 cabs?]...but this is now proven to be wrong!!! It was in fact F30 C29Q thanks to the photo!!

Photo courtesy Mike Kelly:

Note effort went into producing very small pic!

cliff · #8 17-07-04, 10:54

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
1. Ford Model C29Q..F30 or F60S
2. S/M 2127: TRUCK 3 TON 4 X 4 134 IN. WHEELBASE
FOR AUSTRALIA [C60S]
E.g. 2844200207S 2844200208M ENGINE #PR3780477 1942

Ford Model Number C018QF or C298QF [Australia] E.g. # 3G-7606 # 12 [and # 13 cabs?]...but this is now proven to be wrong!!! It was in fact F30 C29Q thanks to the photo!!

David does this mean I could build an authentic Cab 12 Ford with that particular Ambulance body or do I need to do it as per the photo which is a cab 13?

thanks Cliff

David_Hayward (RIP) · #9 17-07-04, 10:58

..the evidence is that there were indeed # 12 Cab chassis, and perhaps someone else who knows more than I about Aussie Fords can confirm that what you suggest would be authentic? I believe thet it would but we need more proof!

cliff · #10 17-07-04, 11:00

Proof OK when I can get back into the AWM database (at the moment it won't let me in for some reason) I will start checking again and see what I can come up with as I would be very interested in finding out.

Thanks
Cliff

PS> my pic that I posted may have come from Mike Kelly as well.

cliff · #11 17-07-04, 23:41

found these two pics in my collection. Pics are from Keith Webbs Old CMP site.

[edited by moderator to replace attached picture by picture link]

cliff · #12 17-07-04, 23:45

in these pics the soldiers are wearing slouch hats so I assume that they are Australian. But then again these could be the later Ford F30 Ambulances

http://www.oldcmp.net/Images/album/ambulance/amb2.jpg

[edited by moderator to replace attached picture by picture link]

Keith Webb · #13 18-07-04, 01:21

Quote:

Originally posted by cliff
in these pics the soldiers are wearing slouch hats so I assume that they are Australian. But then again these could be the later Ford F30 Ambulances

Hi Cliff
Those pics are both on my site. Here's my ambulance page.

The Ford F30 Australian "Indian Army type" ambulance.

cliff · #14 18-07-04, 03:36

Sorry about that Keith. I have a lot of pics here for my references and some of the early ones I downloaded from the net I failed to take a note of where they came from.

I agree now after reviewing your ambulance page that the shots are indeed of the later F30 Ambulance.

I guess I will have to keep looking for proof of us having some 12 cab Ford Canadian assembled ambulances.

I must note here though that apart from 12 cab gun portee's and GS cab 12's I have not come across a lot of photos of other type bodies on the cab 12 chassis. Is it just that there is none of the one's used by the AIF or not many pics were taken of them?

Cheers
Cliff

Mike K · #15 18-07-04, 17:43

Hi All

As Keith said , we think that those Indian pattern ambo 30 cwt bodies were only fitted on the 13 cab 134" wb Chev CMP chassis here in OZ . I have never seen a pic anywhere , of a Aussie Ford 12 or 13 cab with that particular body fitted , or a 12 cab Chev either .

Earlier on, the Indian pattern bodies were seen on both the MCP Chev and Ford 30 cwt chassis with the 9.00 x 18 tyres .

That pic of the Ford 13 cab ambo in this thread , posted by David , is clearly , and without doubt , a Canadian built body , the same pic is in Bart V 's Bible , Bart states it has a Canadian built ambo body on it . The Canadian pattern side curtains in the cab are easy to see .

I said on previous topic , I suspect that those early Aussie Indian ambo bodies , the 1940-41 ones , seen on the Chev/Ford MCP chassis' , were built by a outside firm , rather than by GMH , but I mat be wrong . The later ones , seen on the 13 cab CMP's , were likely made by GMH , these are probably the ones refered to in the Woodville figures. Keith said , none have survived , and he is right .

Mike .

David_Hayward (RIP) · #16 18-07-04, 19:01

Keith, that Ambulance body is surely then a Lindsay [type] House-type body, and was fitted to C60L and F60L chassis to British orders [In fact the Chevrolet C60L type preceded the F60L] but I am no expert by any means and wait with interest others' comments.

Mike K · #17 18-07-04, 20:14

yes David

It looks like a Lindsay body , but others may know more . Maybe one of these ambo bodies made it to OZ , for evaluation . We do know for sure , that at least one Canadian built CMP wireless body was shipped over for evaluation . It survived in a Melbourne scrap yard for years ? I think . But was unfortunately scrapped before it could be saved . Any pics Keith ?

Mike

David_Hayward (RIP) · #18 18-07-04, 20:28

Mike, I am totally stupid! Of course it's Canadian as is the ambulance interior! These are official shots from Windsor of the F30S Lindsay ambulance and the shots ended up in Aussie because they were official shots! However the two British orders for that type of body were on the longer w.b. chassis. That means that those delivered on Ford or Chev chassis were to Canadian order only with a few exceptions! I have photos of both the Ford and Chev 60L versions to British order. The Chevs were winterized cabs.

Keith Webb · #19 18-07-04, 22:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
It survived in a Melbourne scrap yard for years ? I think . But was unfortunately scrapped before it could be saved . Any pics Keith ?

Yes, Mike I have some pics, but not close to hand. There were two of these at Hughes, and the AWM database has one which was on a late chassis Ford as I think a mobile library.

Tony Smith · #20 18-07-04, 23:12

Are any other body types known to have come to Aust in signifigant numbers? I've seen a few of the 15cwt type and one on an F60L:

David_Hayward (RIP) · #21 19-07-04, 08:55

The Brantford Top and Body Company Limited as it was originally of....Brantford, Ontario had a long history of building cabs and bodies for GM of Canada and may have produced prototype G/S bodies for instance. Nice plate!

Rod Diery · #22 19-07-04, 14:32

I assume a 5D4 is a CMP body. Anyone know what it is?

Cheers
Rod

Tony Smith · #23 19-07-04, 17:06

It was some sort of a machinery body, no machinery left in it, but it has this sliding hatch on the right forward side:

Wayne Henderson · #24 23-07-04, 09:57

I didn't see any reference to the Australian-built 13 cab Chev ambulance with
rear opening doors. Any idea on a WO number? The one being restored in Perth is a Chev, the one at Bandianna is a Ford and I cannot remember the make of the blue one over east.

cliff · #25 23-07-04, 11:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Henderson
I didn't see any reference to the Australian-built 13 cab Chev ambulance with
rear opening doors.

there is no proof that GMH built an ambulance with seperate body to the cab with rear opening doors. The only ones we know of are the later Ford F30 with an Indian style body on it.

If you have pics of the chev with opening rear doors could you please share with us please.

I do have pics of a Canadian built Ford ambulance body but can find no proof that the Australian forces had any or whether any even made it to Australia

Wayne Henderson · #26 23-07-04, 17:11

The Chev ambulance here in W.A. is not the seperate body type style. As stated it is the same as the one in Queensland and those other eastern states. This is still a 13 cab Chev ambulance built in Australia and doesn't yet crack a mention on the list.

Hanno Spoelstra · #27 01-05-05, 21:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
Earlier on, the Indian pattern bodies were seen on both the MCP Chev and Ford 30 cwt chassis with the 9.00 x 18 tyres .

I said on previous topic , I suspect that those early Aussie Indian ambo bodies , the 1940-41 ones , seen on the Chev/Ford MCP chassis' , were built by a outside firm , rather than by GMH , but I mat be wrong .

Here's a pic of one of those Ford Indian Army type ambulances. It was recently auctioned on eBay, titled "Beute Kfz Kübel Pkw Afrika Südfront". This suggests this ambulance was captured by the German Army in Afrika.