Re-riveting know how?

Private_collector · #1 03-07-11, 12:41

Does anyone have experience in re-riveting chassis crossmembers or similar, or alternatively know anyone who can do this service?

I want to re-attach some chassis components on a Ford CMP, and would prefer doing this in the correct manner if possible. I have had two people suggest just bolting instead, but i'm not convinced this will be nearly good enough or strong enough.

Keen to hear any advice regarding this, and how the results have worked out in your own experience.

Richard Coutts-Smith · #2 03-07-11, 12:56

Andrew (aj.lec) would be the one to speak to, but you could start here.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...=rivets&page=9

Post #252
Rich.

Ian Fawbert · #3 03-07-11, 13:02

Hi Tony,

While not blitz, you may find this thread on doing a jeep chassis interesting.
http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=177497

Also this one from victoria.
http://www.vmvc.org.au/Articles/how%...ng%20Jeeps.pdf

Hope this sort of helps!

Ian.

Private_collector · #4 04-07-11, 00:59

Thanks to you both for the links.

I am quite interested in looking into making a portable hydraulic rivet press.
I'm no engineer, but it's much easier to manufacture something after you have already seen somebody else do it & kind of takes the hard work out if you can copy one that has evolved through the trial stages into an efficient tool.

I have a Ford chassis which has had 2 rear cross members removed for shortening but they never finished the job. Of course, at least one of the members has been misplaced or lost in transit as the truck moved through several previous owners.

Always a pain to undo this kind of vandalism, no matter how well intentioned, but despite this, the chassis is still worth saving. I don't want to see this poor old thing get scrapped if I can avoid it. The irony is that several months ago I arranged to meet a fellow at a farm where he was retrieving the front half of a Ford F60, but he didn't want to take the rear portion of chassis or rear axle. I bought the axle & wheels, after chassis was cut forward of the axle. Together we took the spring shackle pins out and I had the axle loaded onto my box trailer. He offered me the chassis at the time, but I declined due to space. The chassis had (possibly still has) the cross member that I am now wanting! It's about 2 hr from my place, and I have not been able to contact the farm owner to ask if I can still have chassis. I will keep trying as I know it is EXACTLY what I now need!

Rule of thumb: NEVER pass up offer of ANY parts if at all possible. You will no doubt need them at some stage.

to you both. Thanks again!

aj.lec · #5 04-07-11, 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private_collector

Thanks to you both for the links.

I am quite interested in looking into making a portable hydraulic rivet press.

Tried this

Dosent work as easily as you would expect .Very expensive when press unit cracks in half .Great force is required and therefore the press needs to be massive and then dosent fit even if hot rivetting

Definately no expert in the matter

Easiest way I found was to make up a few different length keepers .Usually at lengths to fit tightly where you want to rivet
-Make a good hammering unit(made mine from jack hammer bit)
-Initial heat of rivets and put in chassis
-Lock in with keepers and wedge tight
-heat exposed end with oxy until red to white hot and commence forcing down with hammer and bar
-heat multiple times and hammer in a circular motion to get smooth consistent doming on rivets (useable heat only lasts about 10 seconds)
-when hammering always make sure the keepers are tight , they come loose after a few hits and you get a loose sloppy rivet .very hard to tighten up later

Mike K · #6 04-07-11, 10:50

Andrew

Are you manually hitting the red hot part with a hammer ?

Would a compressed air hammer be better ?

MIKE

aj.lec · #7 04-07-11, 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

Andrew

Are you manually hitting the red hot part with a hammer ?

Would a compressed air hammer be better ?

MIKE

Initially yes as doing that seems to get the rivet to swell in to the hole better and start a dome shape and then finish off with the forming tool
I tried a air hammer but was a bit small for the job and achieved little . A decent size one should work
Tried an electric jackhammer as well but it gets messy pretty quickly
In the end for the amount I had to do it was quicker and easier just to do it with the sledge .I did about 40 in less than 8 hours start to finish

Ganmain Tony · #8 04-07-11, 11:36

Tony

Ive encountered the very problem you are about to tackle. My truck was changed to 2wd and in the process, the transfer case got tossed and the crossmember to mount the gear box gas axed and the middle bit (of the crosse member) altered into a 2wd mount. It wasnt pretty...

I drilled out the rivets, removed the remaining bit of the cross member, found another chassis, drilled the crossmember out and bolted it into my truck. Has worked out fine.

Private_collector · #9 04-07-11, 12:27

Thats very comforting to hear, believe me.

I hope you don't mind, but I copied and filed the photo you sent with your posting. Reason being, the cross member seen in very back of your picture is another source of puzzlement for me because previous owner had 'modified' this one with a small bracket which I was grateful to see was NOT in your picture.

I spoke to a local engineering company this afternoon regarding their experiences with hot riveting (they work mostly on, and rebuilding heavy vehicles). Put simply, they had NO experience, having never attempted to or given consideration to even trying to re-rivet. Grrrrrrrrrrr!

The whole idea of using any degree of sustained physical exertion gives me shudders to be frank. Since I first suffered an illness that has resulted in me being as weak as a kitten, I don't have much strength or stamina.

Might sleep on the whole idea for a few days, and discuss with my Father-in-law. He would be the one doing any welding that would be required to manufacture anything hydraulic. I'm more 'an ideas man', as Darryl Kerrigan would say.

Mike K · #10 04-07-11, 12:47

tony

I'm no structural engineer . But watching various TV shows on truck building in the USA ( the WINEBAGO factory and the dump truck factory ) , I was surprised to see that they routinely bolt chassis rails and crossmembers together. It seems to be the norm these days, no rivetting done at all.

A friend in the UK, pulled apart his chassis and put it back together with un brako bolts ..no problems

MIKE

Ganmain Tony · #11 04-07-11, 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private_collector

Thats very comforting to hear, believe me.

I hope you don't mind, but I copied and filed the photo you sent with your posting. Reason being, the cross member seen in very back of your picture is another source of puzzlement for me because previous owner had 'modified' this one with a small bracket which I was grateful to see was NOT in your picture.

The whole idea of using any degree of sustained physical exertion gives me shudders to be frank. Since I first suffered an illness that has resulted in me being as weak as a kitten, I don't have much strength or stamina.

Might sleep on the whole idea for a few days, and discuss with my Father-in-law. He would be the one doing any welding that would be required to manufacture anything hydraulic. I'm more 'an ideas man', as Darryl Kerrigan would say.

Happy for you to do so Tony. Incidentally the drilling was hard work. But I probably could have used a sharper drill bit from memory. Starting with a smaller bit and working up is much easier too...

Hanno Spoelstra · #12 04-07-11, 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private_collector

I want to re-attach some chassis components on a Ford CMP, and would prefer doing this in the correct manner if possible. I have had two people suggest just bolting instead, but i'm not convinced this will be nearly good enough or strong enough.

Tony,

Today's chassis use high-tensile-strength bolts and nuts, I'm sure it is easier to find these modern fasteners than the correct rivets. I think "the correct manner" is the right way too, but sometimes one can use alternatives when it poses less of a strain on resources, skills and energy.

Just my 2 cents worth, keep up the good work!

Regards,
Hanno

Richard Coutts-Smith · #13 04-07-11, 19:20

I replaced lost rivets (and fitted the rear fairleads ) by using bolts after machining the head to look like a rivet, rounded the nuts right back as well, leaving just enough hex for the socket to bite, plenty of loktite, the rattle gun and after all that realised that no one would ever see the difference!
Rich.

John Mackie · #14 06-07-11, 14:10

I have repaierd truck chassis in the past. two comments. The holes in the chassis are usually a 32 nd inch size, If you plan to use bolts it is necessary to drill and preferably REAM the holes to the next size 3/8 or 7/16 " .Before drilling or reaming the holes fit tempory bolts to line everything up, remove one bolt at a time drill or ream the hole and add the next bolt or rivet untill all are done. Grade 8 bolts and selflocking nuts should be adequate. i was part of a team that put about 100 5/8" rivets in the smokebox of a stesm locomotive. you only get one chance to upset the rivet . if it gets too cold it has to be cut out and start afresh.

John

Phil Waterman · #15 06-07-11, 15:37

Lots of good information being shared, when I rebuilt the frame on my Pat 12 C60L I had to replace all most all the rivets as I had to replace the inner frame completely and replace a number of sections of cross members that had rusted out sections. Looked at riveting but that seemed to be out side of my technical ability so I went the bolt route.

As suggested I line bored each hole so that untreaded section of grade 8 bolts were a drive fit. Then drove the bolts home and torqued the bolts to 75% of max for each size. Line boring all the layers at each joint with the different plates clamped made for tight fit. I used a small drill press clamped to the frame to hold it square while drilling. see http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/Tools.html for picture of little rig. The drill press also made drilling the holes easy.

One point I would add (obvious but worth saying) make sure that you have the frame perfectly level and square. Though the pictures of drilling the chassis show the chassis on the wheels this was only after making sure that it was actually flat otherwise I would have blocked it up of the floor. In the pictures you will note little numbers next to each hole in the frame these are the bolt sizes used in each case.

As to correctness as a restoration, yes I agree rivets would be better, but in reading old truck manuals replacing broken rivets with bolts was common practice. Some of the repair descriptions I have read recommend redrilling the holes to a larger size for a tight fit of the bolts all layers.

In driving out the rivets on my frame I did notice that the hole in one piece of steel would be larger than the other so that the rivet was actually expanded in the hole making for an even tighter fit than just mushrooming the head.

Cheers Phil

Lynn Eades · #16 06-07-11, 22:29

Bolting a chassis (if its done properly) is fine, but,.... it never looks right.
I have a carrier hull to put together, so I cant short cut it. I have a gun, now days called a rivet breaker (because they are now used to remove rivets)
I have riveted a new strip in the floor of my AOP carrier, and some years back helped a friend re rivet his CMP C8AX chassis. With a bit of preparation, it was a fairly simple task and turned out very nice. For some of us the satisfaction of having replaced rivets with rivets, is worth the effort.
A thought; Some trucks (bedford is one) (having from original) riveted spring hangers. I have seen the hangers shorn off. The rivets (being soft) give, and the chassis rails are still in good useable condition. Grade 8 bolts would F*%# the chassis rail. Bumper irons were fitted the same way. I must say that the repair method was to (ream)and bolt both (NZ army Bedford RL's)

rob love · #17 06-07-11, 22:44

Same deal with the Canadian M35s (MLVW). The front suspension hangers were prone to having the rivets stretch and then shearing off. The rivets were to be drilled out, reamed, and replaced with grade 5 bolts, washers and nulon lock nuts.

Later the same could be found with the rear suspensions, and the center crossmember on the longer M36 Cdn. The mod instruction also called for the replacement of the rivets with bolts.

Grade 5 bolts were not neccesarily stronger than the rivets, but were easily checked for torque and also easily replaced in the event of stretching.

I have re-rivetted a couple of carrier upper armour. These were usually 3/8 rivets which \i did by holding into place with a bottle jack, heating up the rivet shank, and hammering with a larger air chisel. The smaller ones just do not cut it. While the rivets look \ok, they will not be battle tested. I do not believe they are the same strength as properly set rivets.

Lynn Eades · #18 07-07-11, 00:31

The riveting we did was with hot rivets. White hot... into the hole...dolly behind......brrrttt!! (with the gun on the other side)... done.... next.
3/8" rivets (10mm) the gun has a 1 1/16" piston.

rob love · #19 07-07-11, 02:13

Lynn
That sure sounds like the proper way. I think the problem most of us find is that we can't talk our wives into working the bucking bar end.

My methods were created out of neccesity when working alone.

T Creighton · #20 07-07-11, 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love

Lynn
That sure sounds like the proper way. I think the problem most of us find is that we can't talk our wives into working the bucking bar end.

My methods were created out of neccesity when working alone.

Did you ask her to wield the gas torch though Rob?

Regards, Terry

rob love · #21 07-07-11, 12:40

Quite frankly, if a jackstand collapsed, and the vehicle fell and pinned me, I would be happy if she even happenned by the shop within the first day or two. A workshop (to me) is as much a place of solitude as it is a place to get things done.

jack neville · #22 07-07-11, 13:22

My son Jake and I spent a whole week rerivetting the chassis of my Marmon Herrington gun tractor back together after striping two complete chassis, sandblasting the best bits and fabricating a replica inner skin. I got 7/16 size rivets from a company in the States which are slightly bigger than the original size rivets. The whole chassis was bolted together first and then each bolt taken out in turn and replaced with a rivet. We made a few different spacers using big bolts and screwing the nut onto the rivet or jacks or whatever was suitable to hold the rivet head in tight while we used an oxy to heat the shat and then peened them over with a hammer and dressed them finally with a home made tool. Went together quite solidly although because Jake is a builder he did all the hammering. It was quite satisfying to know it should never rust. One thing I hate on restored vehicles is seeing rust scale between chassis rails or bulging rust scale painted over.

lallat · #23 07-07-11, 13:34

I have a friend who has completely dismantled a civilian truck chassis and assembled it using wheel studs. He searched until he found the correct diameter. Most cases they would have to be cut to length. These were then driven into the prepared holes, the fluting on the studs enabling a tight fit, and nuts tightened up. The head of the wheel stud resembles a rivet head.
This guy is fastidious with his work and his restoration is second to none.

Andy Cusworth · #24 24-07-11, 12:36

Hi Tony,

I know wew were discussing this earlier but just thought, I agree bolting is just as strong if you do the right prep and use the right tensile bolts but if you rally want the riveted look instead of making your own which after doing this job you may never use again why not try the nearest Steam Railway enthusiast workshops as you may be able to take your chassis on a trailer and get the job done.... maybe Gympie Rattlers lads could be a starting point or the Wood Museum/Coalmine museum as they must do repairs and riveting inhouse..... or know a man that can !