Any Bets On When They Launch?

[Bob Potter]

I've been following this thread with some interest, and I salute the moderation of our moderator. There are good points here, good and valid. The one thing that caught my ear was Alexander's mention of US chemical weapon stockpiles at Edgewood Army Arsenal (he missed Anniston I think, unless they have moved). I won't quibble with his numbers but I felt I had to comment about doctrine.

It is one thing to possess chemical weapons and another to use them. I was an Ordnance Corps officer, and the Chemical Corps was under its umbrella when I "was in." The use of chemical weapons by US troops on the battlefield requires the authorization of the President of the United States. Forget what you feel about THIS president and think about bureaucracy. Do you know how much military forces LOVE bureaucracy? It takes so long to get authorization through the chain of command that troop commanders think hard about it. They think hard about it anyway, and add to that the fluidity of the battlefield and the necessity changes quickly. In comparison, under Soviet military doctrine, company commanders had authorization to call the stuff in. Who inspired the Iraqis?

Our doctrine may have changed but I doubt it. If for no other reason than we have to get this stuff away from Saddam before he gives any more of it to his buddies like ben Laden, we have to do this. The rest of the world has been brassed off at us off and on for always anyway; do you really think that a sovereign nation will openly ally with Saddam? (An aside: in news footage today, I did see some blokes in Baghdad wearing Russian-style "lizard" fatigue caps. Anyone know anything about that?)

I am not one-hundred-percent convinced that we are doing the right thing and God truly only knows what will become of it. I work hard not to scare the bejesus out of my students but I work hard to be honest with them too. The world was not the same after August 1914, and it was not the same after August 1945. Was not 11 September 2001 a similar milestone?

Only those who have never seen war advocate it. Only politicians and lawyers send young men (and now women -- three of my former students are now serving servicepersons) off to war. I keep remembering the last stanza of the old Woody Guthrie song, "the Ballad of the Reuben James": "the worst of men must fight and the best of men must die."

Message (rant?) ends. Thanks for patience.

Bob

[Steve Guthrie]

Hello

Walter Cronkite said it best. He fears this excursion into Iraq by the US is a precident that will only encourage every country with a border dispute or internal religious to use force to get its way.

For example, a country with an 'X' religious majority may say it's neighbouring country is oppressing members of the same 'x' religion and they must invade to liberate them.

The worst part is, everything is distorted or falsified through the media. CNN and Fox News have close enough to the Pentagons side they're p*ssing OD. The military are going to tell them only what they want to and they'll repeat it as gospel. That 'embedding' of journalists in military units will be a costly farce. Any military commmander will squash any media reports that reflect badly on his troops. The major nets all want to have personnel 'on the ground in Iraq ' when any soldier can tell you getting closer to the battle means you see less of the big picture. It's all machismo posturing of the worst kind. "Our anchor is closer to the battle than your anchor, so we rule and you suck'.

When something happens, tell us. If not, save the endless hours of speculation and put the Simpsons back on.

Oh, my achin' back.

Steve

[Harry Moon]

... the problem with the UN in the first place is that Syria and other murderous regimes actually are allowed to belong to it with equal stature to responsable democracies, and for anyone to attach any importance to their criticisms of the USA... well that's beyond comprehension! I've met many people like our A.B. and you can convince them of nothing , they will believe what they do, every repeated inuendo derogatory about the USA will be taken as fact and every great effort on there part will be ignored or derided. They are loud because they will not hear, persistant because they are unconvincing.

[Mary King]

Latest BBC news.....8 Brits and 4 US killed in helicopter crash thought to be an accident.

C'mon Geoff, I've been calling them Adolf Bush and Tony Mussolini for a long time. And I can assure you that my opinion won't change soon.

Re: UN, I posted that bit about the I/P conflict to show that we have to look at things from a grander point of view if we want to comment on the UN. I completely agree with not discussing the topic.

Bob: The article link is about Anniston. My point being that the US has, and will always have more WMDs than the rest of the world combined.

Also, keep in mind that there is nothing to indicate that Iraq has given chemical weapons to anyone, on the other hand, the US is who gave chemical weapons to Iraq. Also, linking Sept 11 to Iraq is a very long stretch. First, we still don't know what happened, and the official story has as much creditibility as any conspiracy theory. So on that subject, I continue to reserve judgement until all the facts are known.

As for bureaucracy, I swim in gov't red tape every day. I have a very good understanding of the concepts of public administration I am currently in the home stretch in a court case against the gov't on administrative issues (I'm winning) and have had conceded in court that I am considered an expert on ethics and integrity issues.

Harry: You don't know me so please don't make characterizations of me. Anyone who has ever disagreed with me here knows that I will always admit when I have erred, as well I will always be exceptionally well-researched in my opinions.

http://wwwa.accuweather.com/adcbin/p...er=accuweather

There's a link on their to get the weather for the Iraq campaign. There is an indication that another sever sandstorm is expected next Monday. Just in case anyone was interested in the camapign progress.

[Snowtractor]

I believe the US only gets 12-15% of its oil from the middle east making it a moot point about it all being about oil. Canada gets most of its oil from Argentina and I swear I read that we get none from the middle east.
And you are all right, the world sucks and all govs have their own interests at heart. However the US has helped on many more occasions than hurt other nations on this planet. I think of many times , before the cold war was over, they sent money and aid to the USSR after an earthquake or flood, their "enemy". They are not out to hurt the average man but get rid of a sadistic murdering thorn in all of our collective sides. Don't forget who attacked who back when Kuwait was overun and the bloodbath of the Iran-Iraq affair. I also read that though Iran did gas some Kurds Iraq took the oppportunity and gased more because they had a scapegoat. Either way , I don't give a rats ass. This SOB has been given every opportunity to leave take his billions and pass power over to someone else, he has chosen to burn his people along with himself. NIce, to see his looking out for common folk as a true leader should. Whereas Bush and Blair , possibly committing the gravest of sins in their profession ( politics) are sticking their neck out so the millenium dome or Sears tower in CHicago , or even the CN Tower, ( don't have to tell you where that is ) don't become targets in the future and so the middle east can have a chance at harmony amongst themselves.
ALso your possible casualty figures are wrong, almost 80% of the forces in Iraq are actually support and not in the immediate area of combat. THough saying 300,000 troops sounds great in media bites. Eg 4000 tanks times 5 crew = 20,000 tankers and their isn't that many tanks. 3000 fighters=3000 pilots and maybe 1500 backseaters.
As for Israel, whatever, they were attacked and , at that time, fought back against overwhelming forces and kicked ass and took over territory. Good for them. A country wanted to talk peace and made peace with them, Egypt, and guess what? Israel gave them their land back. Ha, what do you know. ONly after the Yom Kippur and Seven day war did the US really start to support Israel heavily.
ANd lastly, Cretien, you are a coward and waffler with only your selfinterest on your mind, you quite frankly ,revolt me.
Go get boys and keep your head down, to all the innocents we hope it'll be over soon and you're alright, but rest assured we WILL be their to help rebuild.
Oh and though I may not agree with sitting around with my head in the sand or placating tin pot dicators, I would fight to the death to protect your right to....something like the US, Brits, and those gawddamned outstanding Assies are doing. :-)
Sean

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

When the Canadian government sees the pictures of the little Kurdish kids that have left their homes out of fear of being gassed,AGAIN.. they may wonder if they should have supported our long time allies,instead of sitting on the fence..
By sitting on the fence they have said that they obviously support Sadam and his cutthroats....
It is obvious that politions of the B'aath party and the Liberal party are sympathic to each other...
I am sure this is not the will of the Canadian people/...
but we don't get a say..
Just the unelected weasles that run the PMO's office and Canada and guide a brain dead PM ..moulding him to spout out the policies that all Canadians are saddled with...If this is a free society ,why is he so afraid to give the back benchers a free vote...??
Democratic Canada...??
Bullsh*t..!!!
Anyone got the GPS co-ordinates of the PMO's office..!!!

[Michael Dorosh]

"Only those who never saw war advocate it."

Sorry, Bob, but one Gefreiter Adolf Hitler saw a bellyful of fighting in the trenches, was a very brave soldier, and was decortated twice for valour.

Seems he was quite a keen advocate of war in 1939.

Lieutenant (j.g.) John F. Kennedy had his PT boat rammed and sunk in the South Pacific. He ordered the unsuccessful invasion of Cuba in the early 1960s.

There are other examples.

I was against the launch of this war without UN approval, but now that it has started, I will support the servicemen who are over there and pray for a speedy conclusion. I won't be sorry to see Saddam go.

I only hope that the Americans do to Iraq what they did to Germany and Japan - ie STICK AROUND and rebuild it into a world-class nation with a strong work ethic and an ability to compete in the world market.

If THAT happens - you are damn right history will judge them (us) better than Nazi Germany.

The war itself is irrelevant; it is what follows on that will matter.

In case anyone was interested.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA80JPIRDD.html

[Mark W. Tonner]

It's nice to see that some things never change..............2003 and
the 'Piper' still leads.........

Cheers

Okay, now this guy has way too much time on his hands.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/planetDVD.jpg

This link is to an MSN article that explains how to get Iraqi tv on your desktop. It is free in the Netherlands and since there's so many Dutch people here, if you want to see what the western media is censoring, here's how.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2080681/

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Alexander Borgia
Okay, now this guy has way too much time on his hands.

As the son of a guid Scotswoman from St. Andrews, I object. He didn't obviously have enough time on his hands to pull his kilt out of his duffle. Nonetheless, he's doing his job...

Do yourself a favour and buy the AMAZING GRACE CD by the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards. Buck up the lads a bit. http://www.hmv.ca can provide, cheap.

Pipe out the rhetoric and pipe in the soldiers... we have men on the ground there in trying times. I don't give a tinker's damn about your politics here... THESE are the men whose fathers and grandfathers justify this site in its own right. Now, it's THEIR turn.

Alexander... HONOUR THE SOLDIERS... how many times do I have to say this...?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Isn't that kind of like getting your up-to-date, honest! newscasts from Axis Sally (or Toyko Rose) in WW2? C'mon, you can do better than that. :

[Mark W. Tonner]

Well, I guess if some thought the Piper from The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers and Greys), had way to much time on his hands, than I guess this squadron was doing a musical ride.

Taken from one of the evening posts of a British paper:

"The battle ensued after a squadron of 14 Challenger II tanks from the Scots Dragoon Guards "came across" 14 Iraqi T-55 tanks as they were heading down the al-Faw peninsula, according to Admiral Michael Boyce, head of British defence staff.

"The Scots Dragoon Guards squadron engaged the Iraqi tanks whilst on the move, and destroyed all 14, and none of our Challengers were damaged. Then the Guards pressed on and overran two associated Iraqi infantry positions," Boyce said.

It was Britain's largest tank clash in more than half a century, if only a skirmish compared to some of the tank battles of World War II, said David Fletcher, historian of the Tank Museum in Bovington, England."

Also, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn, that when The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards and the 1st Battalion, The Black Watch, crossed the border into Iraq, they were Piped across by a lone Piper.

May they all pass safely.

Alexander... HONOUR THE SOLDIERS... how many times do I have to say this...? [/B]

Uh...I was referring to the guy who made parody dvd cover that was in the link. Considering my association with a highland regiment, I hardly have a problem with pipers.

As for the other link to the Iraqi tv station, like the article says, it is only available to the Netherlands, unless you want to much about with proxies, etc.

As far as I'm concerned, the value of what you would get from the other side's propaganda is no more truthful than what you would get from the coalition propaganda machine. I tend to read both the good sources and the bad sources when I read the news.

You'll have to forgive me for not specifically supporting the US and British soldiers. I accept that the have a duty to fulfill and so too does the other soldiers. I mourn the loss of all life in this conflict. But regardless of what the spin doctors spit out, the Coalition of Widowmakers is pitting 200,000 troops against a country of 31 million people, of which 7 million men are of an age to participate in this conflict, as well as the fact that you can see videos of women in Bagdhad carrying automatic weapons, so I think a lot of people will perish before this is over and all for the sake of grand theft oil.

GEOFF: I'm really glad you started this thread. Have just been browsing all the info and responses.

At this point, now that things have begun, I feel that there are bad things happening in our `world' family and once a war/family feud breaks out, it effects EVERYONE on every level... the whole d#mn-family ... like any family, we all need to jump in and help deal with the consequences and help the feud to end before the whole family is done in. Going to war (our family-Canada), in this case, would mean a necessary evil at this point. Speedy resolution and helping those of our family whether we like'em or not. The help ideally also helps end things quicker. Whether we agree or not, started it or not, is irrelevant, What is relevant... it needs to stop and if helping is what makes it stop the suffering faster, then???

Help. Ideals don't fix or change anything, only action does.

My point? I think it's time to jump in there and fight and help along side because that is the thing that needs doing, it seems. Not for our neighbors sake, but for the whole d#amned family!

Thats my two cents worth:

Take care all... and I hope you all avoid the SARS problem!

[Dana Nield]

Alex,

Thanks for your thoughtful insights. While I stand by your right to have a opinion that is vastly different than that of my own, I cannot fathom why you think their is a capitalist pig dog under every rock.

Please continue to post your thoughts as it has been far more entertaining than the Frank Magazine forum has been, as of late.

Cheers!

Dana

Originally posted by Dana Nield
Alex,

Thanks for your thoughtful insights. While I stand by your right to have a opinion that is vastly different than that of my own, I cannot fathom why you think their is a capitalist pig dog under every rock.

I too stand by your right to be on the wrong side of the moral issue in this conflict. Not really sure where you get the idea that I see a capitalist pig under every rock, but you'll notice that I have not flung any mud at people who disagree with me, or else I would have pointed out that my observations so far of people who support the war are falling into two categories: those who are woefully (wilfully?) uninformed and those who are racists. Although, I would accept that there are exceptions somewhere.

Please continue to post your thoughts as it has been far more entertaining than the Frank Magazine forum has been, as of late.

Cheers!

Dana

And Nero fiddled while Rome burned....

[Dana Nield]

Wow, didn't take long for the R-Card to be dropped!

(Shakes head, prints decals instead).

Dana

[Pete Ashby]

Alexander

I have read and noted your replies throughout this thread, up to this point I have with held comment.
I now feel I must draw your attention to several points.

One: You are entitled to your point of view what ever it may be, but in a similar vain so is everyone else, even if this does not fit with your view of the world

Two: I do not pretend to understand the complex reasons for this war, nor am I completely sure at an academic level that I fully endorse it. However my countrymen are out there doing their duty and some are getting killed doing it. I have a moral duty to support them and not to undermine their morale or efforts with verbal posturing from the safety of a PC screen.

Three: Are you a restorer of Military Vehicles? If so why do you do it? I would be interested to hear. If not why are on this forum, there are many other forums which would cater better for your obvious needs.

You are in sort Sir becoming boring.

Pete
Sorry Geoff had to say it

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
Pete:

One: You are entitled to your point of view what ever it may be, but in a similar vain so is everyone else, even if this does not fit with your view of the world

Indeed, and I share this point of view, as well as I encourage others to feel free with expressing their opinion whenever they see fit.

Two: I do not pretend to understand the complex reasons for this war, nor am I completely sure at an academic level that I fully endorse it. However my countrymen are out there doing their duty and some are getting killed doing it. I have a moral duty to support them and not to undermine their morale or efforts with verbal posturing from the safety of a PC screen.

I have been closely following the progession of this war since January 2001. I have looked into the issues quite extensivlely. I personally don't have a problem with people supporting the troops, and I applaud those who do for following their hearts. I, I on the other hand support the Canadian troops first and foremost, and our government decision has been not to directly participate in the war any more than it already is. At present we have 31 soliders in active combat. I wish these soldiers godspeed on their return home, but until then I hope that an angel is looking over them.

Our government has made its stance on the war and I support the country that I am patriotic to.

Three: Are you a restorer of Military Vehicles? If so why do you do it? I would be interested to hear. If not why are on this forum, there are many other forums which would cater better for your obvious needs.

I am in fact not a military restorer, alas, I live in an apartment and my vision precludes me from driving, I stop renewing my licence more than ten years ago. If some day my circumstances change I would like to own a C15A, but I have no place to store one right now. I do have one of Alex Blairs manuals in case I ever manage to get one. For now I must content myself in 1/35th of what it should be.

My interest is primarily in Canda's contribution to WW2, and primarily the administrative aspects of that military operation. I am also a member of a number of other lists and forums concerned with this subject. However, I have been coming to MLU for quite some time and I've always got something controversial to post along with other posts that I make. And any time Geoff wants to delete a thread he's more than welcome to do it, I never take offense when he does. But considering that this is a military oriented site and there is a war going on that is controversial, certainly it should be able to be discussed by adults without making it a personal issue.

You are in sort Sir becoming boring.

So. There are some messages that I find terribly boring and I just use my mouse to scroll on by. It's very easy once you get the hang of it.

[Harry Moon]

http://www.friendsofamerica.ca/
Check out this site and I hope some of you in the GTA are able to attend. I'll have to wait until there is one out west.

[Dana Nield]

Harry,

I hope it goes well. I assume the Jaggi Singh Goon Squad will be making an appearance, which would be unfortunate. I am going to try to get up to Ottawa tomorrow for the event there.

Cheers!

Dana

[Snowtractor]

To no one in particular but I think we are all grown up enough to know there is never any cut and dried reason for a single action, in this case the war in Iraq. There is a collage of reasons, oil being a minor one in my opinion. But I have a question to put to you all. If your neighbour yelled over the hedge ,everyday, to you, that he was going to kill you and your children and family , by one means or another...what would you do? I would call the cops first and formost, in this case I would have to say that the U.N. fits that roll. They talk to your neighbour and say 'don't do that" and leave the situation alone. YOur neighbour continues to abuse his family and threaten yours until one of your children is killed by a friend of his, sept 11th makes reasonable substitution here. The police still do nothing , and though the hard proof may be lacking your neighbour told his friend to harm you there is lots of circumstantial evidence. At what point , with the police flatly stating they aren't going to do anything, are you going to take action.
The US has been threatened verbally for years , and has gone to the UN repeatedly to try to find a diplomatic solution. I am very surprised they put up with what they did and waited this long seeing as how they are the world's super power. Sure they don't save every country from dictators , but should they never start?
Keep your stick on the ice boys and keep up the good work.
Sean

Back in the good 'ol days of black and white, the German General Staff referred to Hitler as the Austrian Corporal. I'm now wondering whether the Joint Chiefs of Staff are referring to Bush as the Texas Awol, or if the have a cute moniker for Rummy. While I have known that the war is being micro-managed by civilians, I figured I'd wait until it was published in a "reputable" and "patriotic" publication before commenting....

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030407fa_fact1

Any opinions on this topic?

----------------

Now I've also noticed on the weekend that CCN was running a poll asking if people thought that friendly fire was the worst danger facing the "coalition," now I read this in the Times...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...629644,00.html

To answer the Brits question, not a damn thing will happen to the pilot. You'd think that they wouldn't be so trigger happy after the fiasco with the Canadians inAfghanistan, but it certainly seems to be that if it moves then it isn't dead enough.

How are the Brits taking the friendly fire incidents at home? From the look of Tony Blair last week at the news conference at Camp David, he had the look about him like he'd just spent a week in prison getting called bitch and traded fro cigarettes. Indications are starting to form that Britain may pull out of this war, Defense has stated that they will not be sending any more troops to the gulf. Since the UK has 45k, and the USA is bringing 120K more, it seems possible that it will be USA and Australia alone. This could be especially true with the USA starting to flush toilets in Syria and Iran.

[R Mark Davies]

Alexander,

As mentioned on the other thread; it happens in all wars and it happens far less in wars involving the USA and the UK than it does in wars involving any other nation you care to mention. It only makes the news because a. The USA and UK carry journos into battle as a matter of routine these days and b. Casualties caused by enemy action are so light that accidents of war become news.

As to 'trigger happy Americans' - yes, the troops are angry, as they always are in such events. However, these things are always whipped up by the Anti-American Brigade out of all proportion. As have already asked on the other thread - where was the RAF and CAF Close Air Support for American troops in Iraq in 91, Afghanistan in 2001/2 and more recently, Iraq in 2003? Perhaps the USAF's eternal critics can tell me?

It is undeniably tragic for all concerned (including the pilot, who must want to die for what he has done), but has to be set against the sheer quantity of successful strikes carried out by the aircrews. It is doubly interesting that in much of the British press, the case of the Challenger engaging another one was hardly mentioned, but the case of the A10 has brought howls of self-righteous indignation from people with absolutely zero military experience.

Cheers,

Mark

PS As for the British pulling out of the war; there is a time-honoured British saying, which I think is applicable here:

"BOLLOCKS!"