Wwii usa vehicle markings

[Little Jo]

Hi All

I am looking at different photographs of markings on WWII vehicles and am seeking advice as to which type of star and lettering I have on my 1942 MB Willys Jeep bonnet. I wish to know if mine is the, " Invasion Star ", or the "Factory Star". And is the lettering, Factory or Field Lettering. I have attached photos to assist in the identification.

Cheers

Little Jo

[Lang]

Tony,

Just had a look at AR 850-5 (Army Regulations - Marking of Clothing, Equipment, Vehicles and Property) August 1942

Your jeep has non-regulation markings "done in the field". This is nothing to get excited about because there were as many marking styles as there were jeeps and almost ANYTHING is historically correct so long as it has the vehicle number on the bonnet. The thing to do when doing a restoration is to mark it in the style you like.

For information if you wanted to make your jeep into a factory delivery concourse vehicle it would have arrived in the depot marked like this.

On the bonnet a 5 pointed star (no circle) 15 inches in diameter. The top point against the windscreen 1 1/2 inches from the screen - not in the middle of the bonnet! The colour of the star is white, if it was a really early jeep the star may have a red circle in the middle. There is a note saying the reason for this position on the jeep is so the star can be seen from above windscreen up or down.

On the side of the bonnet 2 inch then later changed to 3 inch high vehicle number. The letters USA can be in line with the numbers or above. The colour of the registration is lustreless blue-drab, not white! This is why many vehicles in black and white photos appear to have no numbers, the drab blue does not show up very well in photos. If the vehicle has radio suppression the letter "S" is to be added to the numbers with a space separating it.

On the rear quarter side of vehicle (in line with back seat) a 6 inch white star

On rear panel, if space available a 12 inch white star. When jerry cans became standard fitting this star was eliminated as that was where the star went. Trucks kept it on their tailgates.

As well as this there are the unit markings. These are listed in the manual and comprise 2 inch blue-drab letters and symbols placed on front bumper bar and rear bumpers. They are quite long groups of letters, numbers and symbols and had to be put on in two rows or half of the set on each rear bumper.

Factory numbers were solid (not with the stencil cut-outs in the letters)

The letters were plain straight font right through the war, with all the changes. The more fancy style you have was a local mod.

The most obvious change made was to go to all white letters in 1943.

All the various star and number size and font designs were the result of local instructions (local may mean theatre of operations) and of course were subject to the artistic bent, painting skill and just plain interest of the painters. They were not the result of an army-wide instruction. I have seen a photo of outrageous vandalism of ground crew painting the three big invasion stripes on DC3's with 20 litre cans of white paint and BROOMS!

Basically the further back from the front line, the more stars, letters and twirly do-dads the vehicles had. The Pacific theatre is very conspicuous for its plain unadorned vehicles.

Lang

[Lang]

Here is a factory photo of a Dodge being painted. The stencils are sticky backed brown paper and the "joiner bars" across the letters are removed before spraying. This must be one of the last 1/2 ton Dodges because the letters have gone from 2 inch to 3 inch (then again could be a later period rebuild - all the manufacturers had contracts through the war to rebuild vehicles for reissue)


Also a photo of a luxury most units did not have - a professional sign writer!

Lang

[Little Jo]

Lang

Very much appreciated, thank you for clearing this up for me, this certainly helps me as I move along with the project, which I hope to have ready for Corowa this year.

From what you have advised there seems to be a lot of poetic licence taken by various units. I am not going concourse, I just like to do it right. The second photo of the sign writer looks like they could be in the desert.

I am going desert coloured with my Jeep and I have attached a photo of the current stage of my Jeep restoration taken today. Thanks again for the very informative reply.

Cheers

Little Jo

[ozm29c]

Tony,
Looking good What is the Chassis number for your MB?
Cheers
John W.

[Lang]

Tony,

You have a desert colour jeep in Australia, that belonged to the Australian army, it has Australian equipment on it - what has this got to do with the Americans?

I have mentioned this before but I can't understand Australians painting their vehicles in American colours when the American forces never owned that particular vehicle. What's wrong with preserving our history and not somebody elses?

If you want I can give you the correct markings for a jeep operated by Australians in the desert. You can choose whatever unit you want and I will give you their markings also.

regards

Lang

[Little Jo]

Hi Lang and John

Thanks for getting back to me.

Lang. I would love to know what the ausie desert markings are. I have no idea what they were. The reason I asked for the star markings was because that was on the Jeep before I started the restoration and I thought I had to put it back. As I am going Desert I would prefer Ausie.

John. The chassis number is 163331.

Cheers

Tony

Little Jo

[Lang]

Tony,

Some pictures of Australian desert jeeps. There are a couple of early pre-standardisation jeeps that people would kill for now.

Asyou can see, the Australians did not go for lots of markings (although dirty white numbers etc may not show on photos). There is only one that you can see the Australian bonnet numbers under the windscreen. If you want to use this style I will give you the correct series.

Lang

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Tony - I told you when you first became involved with military vehicles, you would be overwhelmed with the advice and comments from all quarters. No matter what you ask someone will come up with an answer. This is why I have constantly subscribed since early 2003. I have learnt so much and there is much more to learn.

Bob

[Little Jo]

Lang

Great photos, Yes please Lang I would love the Ausie details, surely the way to go and the Jeep should go that way.

Bob

I have only been on MLU since July 2010 and the information and advice readily supplied by MLU members world wide makes you feel you belong to a terrific bunch of people. As you know this is my first project and would not have gone so smoothly without the help from all you guys.

Cheers

Tony
Little Jo

[Lang]

Tony,

Have a think about a unit you want the markings for - perhaps a SA unit or one of someone you know or related to. You have 6,7,9 Division to choose from plus Australian GHQ and of course RAAF units.

The markings are very clearly set out in the instructions for unit identity to be carried on the vehicle. From all these photos it looks like the units in the field didn't give a rats about carrying regulation marking!

Most trucks did carry the unit markings.

Here is a photo of my Chev with "correct" markings (this style was introduced during the desert campaign and kept with slight modifications throughout the war) The jeep had the division and unit signs on the bottom panel of the windscreen. But again, from the photos - who cares!

Lang

[Blackpowder44 (RIP)]

I couldnt agree more with Lang when he says keep it Australian. At the time the Australian army was in the desert no invasion stars were used, on british vehicles an RAF roundell was on the bonnet. The British and Commonwealth armies were the first to use Jeeps in combat so lets commerate this fact and do your jeep up as an Aussie one, John.

[Little Jo]

Hi Lang and John

The photos of your vehicles look terrific. I can see what you mean and I agree "Keep it Australian", I may have been born in Holland, but I am a proud Australian, struth, I even won a marble in the lottery in to serve in the Australian Army. Lang your Tac plate looks like it could be Artillery.? As I live in South Australia I will go for an SA Unit. The 2nd-10th, served in the Middle East.

I have attached photos of when I purchased my Jeep and of the current stage of restoration.
Cheers

Tony
Little Jo

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Tony,

Excellent advice here from your now-fellow countrymen. Many restorers back in your old home country prefer to restore their Jeeps as "one of those used by our liberators" and then they run off and paint it up in US 82 or 101AB Div. markings

If someone is adamant on using US markings I often try to point out there are more possibilities than OD plus white stars - see attachment.

Your Jeep is looking great and "going Aussie" is an excellent choice.

Regards,
Hanno

[Little Jo]

Hanno

Thanks mate, I am now happy with my choice and going as an Australian vehicle. It should look better when I get the correct Tac plates etc. onto it.

Had a phone call from my brother in Holland last Sunday, he tells me there are a lot of restorations in Holland, He said a guy accross the road from him has an old military vehicle. I will try and find out more details from him.

Cheers

Tony
Little Jo

[Lang]

Tony,

I have just looked at the marking instructions for the desert period and see that if you did everything they said the vehicle would be covered in signs. This obviously did not happen from the photos so I will set out below what should be a good balanced group of markings that conscientious commanders might have put on your vehicle.

The bonnet sign is in white if a dark coloured vehicle or in "contrasting" colour if it is light. Looks like the desert vehicles had black numbers.

You should have 3 1/2 inches high, simple block letters something like: AIF, then a space, M(vehicle class), then a dash, then numbers.
AIF M-12345 You can choose whatever numbers you like. All the numbers I have seen for the desert period are 4 or 5 digit groups. Whatever number you put on some anal person will tell you it was on a Chev ute not a jeep - that's life.

Vehicles other than staff cars could all have an individual name "Saucy Sue"
This was no larger than 2 inches high in white placed over the windscreen or central on the front bumper (obviously bumper for jeep).

Your markings for the 2/10 infantry battalion would be:

Red background for the senior Brigade with the number 80 for the second senior battalion. 2/10 was in the 9th Division but all divisions had the same markings ie there could have been 3 battalions in the Middle East with a red background and number 80.

This confusion is solved by carrying the division sign as well. Later on with trucks the division sign is on the top half of a 9 inch high plate with the unit sign on the bottom half. During your period trucks carried two large signs - the division on the left and unit on the right like in the photo of my Chev above. Obviously a huge plate is not going to fit on the jeep so the signs on the jeep will go at the bottom of the windscreen.

On the right hand side a red square of approximately 6" with the number 80 in white. On the left hand side a black square of approximately 6" with the division sign in white. In your case this is the platypus over a boomerang. These can be on removable plates but 99% I have seen in photos are painted straight onto the screen panel.

That is enough. You could have bridge weight signs which almost no light vehicles carried plus numerous other stripes and twirls but nobody seems to have done anything about these from the photos. Keep it simple.

Lang

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Something along these lines?
Bonnet numbers are being hidden by the sun shine, you can just see the top of them,
For some reason, all the jeeps I have seen named over here have the name behind the right mud gaurd. Not saying it is historically correct, just what is currrently in favour.
Rich.

[Little Jo]

Hi Lang/Richard

Thanks a million, that has made it all more genuine. I have just finished masking up and painting a Black and a Red Square 6 x 6 on the windscreen frame and I will add the other parts when dry. I must say, looks good.

Tony

Little Jo

[Rich Payne]

Not the correct thread for the truck, but I'm not up to the ID and this photo is on eBay at the moment showing clear Middle East markings.



Are they the right way up if viewed in Australia ?

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Rich Payne

Are they the right way up if viewed in Australia ?

no unfortunately not

[Mike K]

Back in 1976, I bought a slatt grill Willys DOD 31 12 41

The bonnet had a RAAF number on it, but beneath was a blue W-USA number , it also sported a white star on the bonnet , near the windscreen end .

For some reason, you don't often see US stars on US vehicles in the SWPA and in Australia . More often, they only have the numbers without any star. Does anyone know why ?