Pattern 52 webbing

jeepingpw · #1 17-01-10, 00:42

I am trying to find info on the Canadian Pattern 52 webbing.

First off I have seen it called 51, 52 , & 56 Pattern?

Anyone know what it really is?

When I joined the Reserves in 1982 we were issued this style of webbing, but I can't remember what it was refered to as.

When we were issued the P64 webbing, we got to keep our old webbing.
All I had left was the belt, x-straps & 2 Bren mag pouches which I just sold to a guy putting together a complete set.

Today i was going through a box of stuff & came across a Browning HP holster & a Gas Mask bag.

I know the holster is the P5? style, but don't know about the Gas Mask bag.

I also found these in the pockets of the bag.

8/43 dated CANCO Anti-Dimming Mk VI
Chem Agent Detector Paper

Ed Storey · #2 17-01-10, 02:08

Canadian post-WWII webbing patterns were: 1951, 1964 and 1982. Respirator Bags or Haversacks are not classed as part of the web equipment. The bag one you illustrate was the second type issued with the post-WWII version of the Lightweight Assault Respirator which may have been a C1 Respirator, but I am not completely sure the designation is correct.

Dean (Ajax) · #3 17-01-10, 03:14

I have a couple of those gas mask bags..but mine are made of green canvas..not the rubberized material shown in the photo.

Dean

derk derin · #4 17-01-10, 03:41

Kevin,
I have been collecting 51 patt. webbing and have never been able to find any reference books other than Jack l. Summers book Tangled Web which started me collecting Canadian webbing.I have the following items;
The web braces,left and right;

The waistbelt;

The haversack (smallpack) and L straps if worn in place of the largepack;

The largepack with cross straps and L straps;

The entrenching tool and carrier that hooks to the top web tab on the largepack or haversack;

The canteen,carrier and folding cup;

The basic pouches;

The 2 piece mess tins and carrier;

The gas mask bag,instruction sheet,anti-dimming Mk 7 and gas mask.I don't know what the designation is for the post war respirator is but the cannister is dated 7-10-53 and the rubber facemask is marked NORMAL CA 60;

The 3 piece cutlery SILCO 1952 with a C broadarrow stamped in them;

derk derin · #5 17-01-10, 03:43

The mine probe and web carrier;

The Mk 2 helmet was refitted with green chinstraps like the karki ones of WWII issue,there is also a different style chinstrap below;

The Aladdin thermos and carrier;

The housewife and contents and a ration bag;

The K. V. DETECTOR L.1A.1 whatever that is ? dated 1955;

The wool blanket that was kept in the large pack dated 1951;

The No.4Mk1 rifle sling and bayonet frogs for the spike and blade bayonet;

The sling and bayonet frog for the FN C1A1 rifle;

The sling for the Sterling SMG and cleaning kit;

The officers webbing,holster,lanyard,braces and compass pouch.There is a binocular case in 51 patt. green like the karki WWII one but I haven't found one for sale to buy yet!

Hopefully Ed Storey can add to the 1951 pattern story.
Derk.

malcolm erik bogaert · #6 17-01-10, 18:47

your items remind me of our own British Army 58 type webbing which is very similar best regards malcolm

Ypres Creepers · #7 08-03-10, 19:24

I also have a great interest in p51 here are my pieces so far

Also have one of the illusive gas mask bags, missing the straps though sadly.

Also have the wrong canteen, but am getting the proper one soon, but one cool thing about my plastic 1q is that it is Canadian, pre 1962.

still yet to get any belts and straps for a decent price online, and haven't had a chance to look in shops but will be going next week.

derk derin · #8 09-03-10, 06:32

Hi Lee,
I can get the left and right L straps here in Winnipeg brand new if you need a set.There used to be boxes of brand new unopened 51 pattern webbing but somebody must have showed up and bought it all years ago.There are just the L straps left.I will have another look around just to make sure.Are you interested in completing a full set of webbing?
If you are in Calgary,look up Ribtors warehouse if it is still around,they also had a bunch of 51 patt. webbing.Not too many of us out there interested in the post war webbing.
Regards,Derk.

Ed Storey · #9 09-03-10, 11:39

I have a Large Pack, Haversack and a pair of Braces for sale.

Ypres Creepers · #10 09-03-10, 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by derk derin

Hi Lee,
I can get the left and right L straps here in Winnipeg brand new if you need a set.There used to be boxes of brand new unopened 51 pattern webbing but somebody must have showed up and bought it all years ago.There are just the L straps left.I will have another look around just to make sure.Are you interested in completing a full set of webbing?
If you are in Calgary,look up Ribtors warehouse if it is still around,they also had a bunch of 51 patt. webbing.Not too many of us out there interested in the post war webbing.
Regards,Derk.

yes, I am interested in completing a full set of the webbing, and if I ever get a chance to be in calgary, I'll defiantly have a look (currently reside in bc).

I'd love to grab those L straps, but alas I am short on cash at the moment, going on a trip in a few days but I'll get back to you on this, you too ed.

Ypres Creepers · #11 09-03-10, 20:48

Also, question about the canteen, Is the gasket inside cork, as the US model it was based on or is it rubber?

SteveF · #12 10-03-10, 00:19

Derk, is your FN C1A1 live? I would love to see more of that great rifle. It's a shame that I'll never get to add one to my collection.

derk derin · #13 10-03-10, 06:56

Lee,
I will pick up a set for you when I am there,last time I bought a set,they were a $1.00ea. and if you decide you don't need them,I will throw them in my pile of webbing!

Steve,
Looks can be deceiving,that is actually an Indian Ishapore FN with all of the Canadian parts on it to make it look like an FNC1A1.I bought 8 of them years ago when Checkmate sports went out of business and deactivated them all for my vehicle and webbing displays.I also bought a heavy barrel and made an FNC2A1 version.I display the FN's in my 5/4 ton with the Sterling SMG which is a British L4A2.I wish the Government would have had a deactivation program for all of the surplus FNC1 and C2 rifles and the Sterlings so that collectors would have been able to keep a part of the Canadian Military's cold war era equipment history to display and preserve for the future.They also would have probably recovered all of their money they spent buying them back in the 1950's!But melting them down seemed to be the logical thing to do.I do have one of the Ishapore FN's live and with all of the Canadian parts.The rear sight,carry handle,flash suppresor,wood grips and top cover.Having one means I can buy a Canadian FN (12-5) but they have to sit in the locked gun case never to see daylight so what is the use to spend the extra money if a person can't take it to the range and target shoot.Oh well!
Regards,Derk.

rob love · #14 10-03-10, 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by derk derin

Lee,
I will pick up a set for you when I am there,last time I bought a set,they were a $1.00ea. and if you decide you don't need them,I will throw them in my pile of webbing!

Steve,
Looks can be deceiving,that is actually an Indian Ishapore FN with all of the Canadian parts on it to make it look like an FNC1A1.I bought 8 of them years ago when Checkmate sports went out of business and deactivated them all for my vehicle and webbing displays.I also bought a heavy barrel and made an FNC2A1 version.I display the FN's in my 5/4 ton with the Sterling SMG which is a British L4A2.I wish the Government would have had a deactivation program for all of the surplus FNC1 and C2 rifles and the Sterlings so that collectors would have been able to keep a part of the Canadian Military's cold war era equipment history to display and preserve for the future.They also would have probably recovered all of their money they spent buying them back in the 1950's!But melting them down seemed to be the logical thing to do.I do have one of the Ishapore FN's live and with all of the Canadian parts.The rear sight,carry handle,flash suppresor,wood grips and top cover.Having one means I can buy a Canadian FN (12-5) but they have to sit in the locked gun case never to see daylight so what is the use to spend the extra money if a person can't take it to the range and target shoot.Oh well!
Regards,Derk.

You could always buy a Canadian FN and dewat it. I plan on deactivating another Cdn FNC1A1 when I get home in a few months. I think you know the one Derk.

derk derin · #15 10-03-10, 18:16

Rob,
I know the one,but wouldn't have the heart to deactivate it if I can own it live.Maybe one day they will issue us permits again to take them to the range and shoot them!Not holding my breath though.
Derk.

servicepub (RIP) · #16 10-03-10, 19:55

If anyone has a deactivated SMG C1 or an FNC1A1 (even good Ishapore lookalikes) I would be ineterested in buying them to equip my M38A1.
When I was at the CFC everyone agreed that the restrictions on taking 12-x to the range made no sense. We just couldn't convince the powers that be (on the political side) that this should be changed as the numbers involved were so small.

Ypres Creepers · #17 10-03-10, 21:55

Sounds good to me, I'll get back to you about them

rob love · #18 11-03-10, 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by servicepub

If anyone has a deactivated SMG C1 or an FNC1A1 (even good Ishapore lookalikes) I would be ineterested in buying them to equip my M38A1.

Keep an eye on gunnutz. You will have to sign up for the EE (equipment exchange) forum. There are usually one or two FNs a month show up on that site. Expect to pay around $350 to $500 for one. Then you will have to find the carry handle, rear sight, and possibly the wood to pull it all off. A Canadian C1A1 will easily run you over three times that price range.

As for a sterling, either British or Canadian, that is a little tougher. There is a semi auto restricted only sterling on the site now, but it runs a little over $6K. A dewat of a British sterling will usually start at $1200, but are far and few between. A dewat of the Cdn C1 SMG is nearly impossible to find. Stens, on the other hand, are a dime a dozen. Enough years have passed that many guys cannot tell the difference.

SteveF · #19 11-03-10, 01:15

I just picked up an Indian 1A1 off Gunnutz a couple of weeks ago for $400. Just need the C1 rear sight and carrying handle. What is the difference with the flash eliminator? Mine fits a C1 bayonet just fine.

rob love · #20 11-03-10, 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveF

I just picked up an Indian 1A1 off Gunnutz a couple of weeks ago for $400. Just need the C1 rear sight and carrying handle. What is the difference with the flash eliminator? Mine fits a C1 bayonet just fine.

The difference in flash hiders was the number of slots. 99% would never spot the difference.

SteveF · #21 11-03-10, 05:16

Thanks Rob. I haven't handled a C1A1 since 1988 so.... couldn't quite pick that detail out. Although I do recognize that the butt stock is slightly different where it attaches to the receiver, but only after I looked at an old photo.

rob love · #22 11-03-10, 14:48

The butt is the part that really gives it away once the top cover and the rear sight are changed. I have tried to change the lower receiver (trigger housing) on Ishapores to better accommodate the Cdn butt, however the two are a poor match. It is possible, with a little fitting, to change just the buttstock.

My own feelings on it are that by the time you tart up an Ishapore with all the Cdn fixings, you might as well have just bought a C1 in the first place. There are still hundreds of them live in the country, you just need to hunt around a bit.

Dressing up an Ishapore is like taking your sister to the prom....she might be pretty, but she aint a real date.

Ypres Creepers · #23 23-03-10, 05:59

Picked up a pair of basic pouches at a surplus store last week, they also had a bin of mess tin carries, but already owning one I passed those up.

Got a proper mess tin too.

Question, I know the basic pouches held smg mags, 2 inch mortars, but does it also fit bren mags?

And what type of compass went with the compass pouch?

Ed Storey · #24 23-03-10, 11:29

Yes, the Basic Pouches will hold Bren Magazines.

The Compass Case was designed to hold the Prismatic Compass.

Ypres Creepers · #25 23-03-10, 20:15

thanks a lot ed.

Ypres Creepers · #26 31-03-10, 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by edstorey

I have a Large Pack, Haversack and a pair of Braces for sale.

What condition are these pieces in ed?