Phasing out of unleaded petrol..NSW..2011

[Darrin Wright]

Heard on the early morning news mid week, an article about workshops in NSW, Australia; having to rebuild totally destroyed and worn out engines in late model cars (car shown was a VW Golf 2009). The mechanics being interveiwed blamed owners using Ethanol E10 fuel to save $$$ or help the environment.
They then went on to say that regular unleaded fuel, in NSW, will be phased out in 2011 (no exact month given). This will then give owners only one option, to buy premium unleaded at an extra 20c + per litre.

All that I have read about Ethanol fuel being used in older vehicles and older vehicles were designed for a low octane fuel, this is possible not a good thing for the old car movement and outselves. How long will it be for the rest of the states to follow suit?

your comments and thoughts?

[Tony Smith]

Having run my Landcruiser on 100% Biodiesel for the past 4 years, I've heard all sorts of rubbish about how Biofuels will ruin engines. BS!!

The current Federal Standard allows for the proportion ethanol blend in ANY petrol product to be up to 10% and still be acceptably defined and sold as "Unleaded Petrol", Australia wide. Within NSW, the Dept of Fair Trading has stated that any petrol containing ethanol shall be so marked at the pumps. Elsewhere in Australia, there may already be ethanol blends being sold as Unleaded petrol, but there is no State requirement to mark it as the fuel is still within the parameters of the Federal Standard for "Unleaded Petrol".

Also in NSW there is a mandate for the proportion of ethanol to be sold as fuel, and this proportion is established as a sliding scale to increase the amount. This sliding scale commenced on 1 Oct 2007, when 2% of ALL petrol by volume sold in NSW must contain ethanol. This could be acheived by the petrol companies by either selling 2% blend ethanol, or by selling a certain volume of their petrol products as E10 blend. In 2008, the mandated amount of ethanol was increased to 4%, and from 1 Jan 2009 to 6%. The mandate for 10% ethanol in fuel (E10) is to come into force on 1 Jul 2011. Queensland is looking at a 5% mandate.

The possibility of E10 alone "ruining" engines is slim. Fuel grade Ethanol can have issues in dissolving or softening natural rubber components in older cars such as fuel hoses and pump diaphrams, and the ability of ethanol to absorb and retain water can affect various fuel and emissions sensors by corrosion on newer EFi equipped vehicles. As there has been an allowance in the Federal Standard for 91 RON Unleaded since 2002 for petrol to contain some amount of ethanol, all Australian vehicles since that date have been designed to use the specified fuel. For some imported and performance vehicles, the vehicle is specified by the manufacturer (and stated in the handbook) to run on 95 RON fuel, either for compression or tuning reasons, or because certain components in the engine management system are recognised by the manufacturer as not being compatible with ethanol. And this is where the "Blame" for biofuels begins.

People who for whatever reason buy a particular car that is specified to run on 95 RON fuel, but for the sake of cost (in my part of NSW, it's about 10c a litre difference) then fill up with 91 RON and experience rough running, pinging, or sensor failure don't blame themselves, they think the ethanol blend is at fault, but the same symptons would have occured with 91 RON "pure" unleaded. These owners are not "forced" to buy premium because of the introduction of ethanol, but because that's what the vehicle manufacturer specifies for that vehicle in the first place. If the vehicle is spec'd to run 91 RON, it will run E10.

With the older vehicles that we usually discuss on this forum, the Octane rating of the fuel will not be an issue, as most were designed to run on fuel specified as low as 70 Octane. However, issues could occur with natural rubber components in the fuel system. Depending if your vehicle is original, or has been restored in the last few years, this may or may not be a problem.
As most of the fuel system on a blitz is solid fuel pipes (as designed originally), the weak links are the short flexible rubber line from the firewall to the fuel pump and the diaphrgm in the pump (and electric pump if fitted). The fuel hose will cost you about 50c for a 20cm length of new ethanol resistant line, and most new replacement pumps and rebuild kits will have nitrile diaphragms. NO WORRIES!

The only other issue relevant to "our" vehicles is the propensity of corrsion occuring to fuel tanks by fuel standing for long periods absorbing more water than would otherwise occur with non-ethanol blended fuel. Solution? Drive more often!

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Darrin Wright

Heard on the early morning news mid week, having to rebuild totally destroyed and worn out engines in late model cars (car shown was a VW Golf 2009). The mechanics being interveiwed blamed owners using Ethanol E10 fuel.

your comments and thoughts?

NRMA's review of the new 2009 Golf states: "The new petrol engines point to the future for Volkswagen, smaller in capacity, yet more powerful and lower fuel consumption than the old generation 1.6 and 2.0 litre petrol engines they replace. Turbocharging is the key to the impressive figures. The 118TSI produces 118kw and an extra 40Nm of torque from the same capacity, the extra power coming from the addition of a supercharger as well as the turbo. The downside with the new engines is the requirement to run 98RON unleaded fuel."

If you use 91RON fuel in a Turbo + Supercharged car that is spec'd to use 98RON fuel, budget for engine failure, because it won't be covered by warranty . It's not the presence of ethanol, it's the absence of common sense.

[Barry Churcher]

Here in Canada the gas pumps at most stations will give you the percentage of ethanol in that particular grade. Of the 3 grades the regular has the highest percentage and Hi-Test (premium) the lowest. I noticed at Shell the Hi-Test has zero ethanol. When I got the C15TA from Holland I was a little concerned about the differences in the fuel. For the 10 to 15 cent per liter difference in cost I feel I am farther ahead with the Shell premium. The vehicle guzzles fuel but I never go that far at a time. Scientifically, who knows how much difference it will make, but psychologically I feel a lot better about protecting my baby.
Barry

[Phil Waterman]

Here in the States they have been using 5-10 and even 20 ethanol for a number of years. When they first introduced it, there was a bout of engine failures. I suspect that many of these could be traced back to failure of the fuel pump diaphragm causing oil dilution. Also during the first couple of years a number of our MV Club members had problems with failures of fuel pumps, fuel lines, fuel gage and carb floats (plastic and cork) all caused by softening caused by the ethanol on rubber materials. I’ve also had one report of the old style yellow gas tank sealer being dissolved or softened to the point where it plugged the fuel filter.

I’ve got some photos of the problems that I can post if people are interested.


Cheers Phil

[gordon]

As I understand it, virtually all of our trucks will run on any of these fuel types without engine damage. In particular Dodge flatheads were based on a 1930's design that would run on fuel before they thought to start putting TEL in it, so no engine problems as such unless you are working it hard and revving it hard - not our thing really. Extra cost you will just have to put up with.

You will have problems with pump diaphragm, hose linings, tank sender gaskets, and so on, as the more aggressive fuel will just eat away at them. You should be able to source new reproduction hoses that will put up with it though. Don't forget the fuel filter top seals, as those have to work for the fuel to draw through. Most carb gaskets materials will be affected less as there was no 'rubber' in them to start with.

[Jon Skagfeld]

I was made aware of the potential rubber deterioration in fuel systems WRT ethanol fuel.

I just throw in some Lead Additive every second or third tankful and (hopefully) no worries.

[Barry Churcher]

Jon, the lead additive is a good safety precaution but the ethanol is still in there. In the garage we only see problem vehicles of course but the number of older vehicles with fuel problems is increasing. Many vehicles we get to work on are almost impossible to find a carb or fuel pump kit for let alone find one with newer neoprene parts. Another alternative is to buy av gas.
Cheers,
Barry

[Howard]

If you don't want to run E10, then don't.
Use premium. Costs a bit more but doesn't go off as quick! Is not as hygroscopic. Contains less deposits.

(Remember when you had a choice of "Super" or "Standard"? Nobody used "Standard", only "Super" will do!! Why has this changed? Why do we insist on using the cheapest shite?)

Tony, as for your bio-diesel, you have to be VERY careful with modern diesel systems, especially common-rail technology. The local Nissan & Toyota dealers are doing a lot of diesel fuel system repairs, as are tractor workshops. Not a cheap repair.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Howard

Tony, as for your bio-diesel, you have to be VERY careful with modern diesel systems, especially common-rail technology.

Got that nutted out. The Cruiser has a 1HZ engine with rotary injector pump and was rebuilt with viton components around 2000 when Low Sulphur Diesel appeared. It will happily consume 100% Bio all day, and has done so now for nearly 90,000km.

Our Mazda6 has a common rail system, and weren't able to be released here until Aust Diesel comformed to Euro4 standards (known as Ultra-Low Sulphur Diesel). The standard for Euro4 fuel (and US ASTM D975) allows up to B5 blends, and I will only run B5 as that is what Mazda will cover under warranty. I have inquired about the injector costs for the Mazda, they are are$1675ea