Panzerjäger Bren 731(e)

[JTH]

Folks,

I have followed this thread for a while now and am very impressed with the knowledge and work of everyone here. Our club has at least 4 carriers in it not including mine, and instead of doing a repeat fo the other versions I was looking for an unusual varient. I original thought WASP (there is one at the war museum I could take measurements off of,) but then ran across info on captured carriers used by the germans and though that might be a different way to go. I am leaning towards the panzerschrect carrier with 3 antitank rocket launchers mounted in a rack on top. I have order some books on captured equipment, and have a few pictures, but details are hard to come by. This site has some info: http://forums.filefront.com/fh2-sugg...ren-731-e.html

Anyone have any pictures or information on captured carriers? And I would appreciate your thoughts on the viability of this project.

cheers

[JTH]

Bump.

Anyone have any information on captured carriers?

[pzrwest]

I have a book here with just about every German tank etc they had. And I remember seeing some captured carriers with the rear sides removed and a platform on either side of the engine box and soldiers sitting on the plaform with their legs hanging dow the sides and the name given was a schlepper. I'll see if I can find it was packed before we move to the house here so may be awhile finding the book

[Lynn Eades]

Maybe its a real "Bren". Most were lost at(or before) Dunkirk.

[RichardT10829]

as per Lynns comments they put lots into service for the sheer versatility of the vehicle. Nigel Watsons Vol 1 of the carrier book has numerous pictures of carriers being used by germans.

here are some pics for you that i had (for idea's) you already had one so i posted the others instead, first one is a line of captured carriers (the german cammo looks so much better in my opinion)


here is a wasp if you want to stay allied forces


and finally to be very different here is a 2 pounder tank hunter (as per Kevin Powles build)

[Blackpowder44 (RIP)]

here is a tank hunter

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by JTH

Folks,

I have followed this thread for a while now and am very impressed with the knowledge and work of everyone here. Our club has at least 4 carriers in it not including mine, and instead of doing a repeat fo the other versions I was looking for an unusual varient.

Building a common UK or Canadian Carrier is just fine with me. The idea was the factories made them by the thousands, and there is more than enough room for variation across the range. For example, the CWM has a Mk I beside a Mk II. Easy to compare one to the other and back.

I think some of the old fellas would rise in rightous fury that you were giving the Jerries much credability by putting an effort into duplicating a captured vehicle. A colleague of mine was researching Canadian soldiers who deserted and collaborated with the Nazis. He had very limited success finding out their stories. Almost every door was closed. The lure of the Crooked Cross was strong for these half-dozen guys, but they were hung as traitors (truely) after the war. Not something that sat well with ANYONE who knew or served with them.

[JTH]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Building a common UK or Canadian Carrier is just fine with me. The idea was the factories made them by the thousands, and there is more than enough room for variation across the range. For example, the CWM has a Mk I beside a Mk II. Easy to compare one to the other and back.

I think some of the old fellas would rise in rightous fury that you were giving the Jerries much credability by putting an effort into duplicating a captured vehicle. A colleague of mine was researching Canadian soldiers who deserted and collaborated with the Nazis. He had very limited success finding out their stories. Almost every door was closed. The lure of the Crooked Cross was strong for these half-dozen guys, but they were hung as traitors (truely) after the war. Not something that sat well with ANYONE who knew or served with them.

I considered that as part of my selection process, however I think I can defuse any concerns by discussion of the events that led to the capture and the reality that the Germans used many captured vehicles. As well it is certainly likely to attrack more folks over to our display area.

I had the same sort of situation when I flew R/C aircraft. One of my aircraft was an FW-190D and I did have the odd question about Nazi equipment. I simply pointed out that war requires at least two opposing forces and I believe it serves to better illustrate the magnitude of our forces Victory and sacrifices to be aware of the calibre of equipment they faced.

We already get the general - you are glorifying war - comments which we treat very carefully (lest we forget), especially now that we have forces in harms way.

Thanks for your comments. I have plenty of time to consider them since to get to a captured carrier, I still have to get to the completed carrier stage first.

Jeff

[RichardT10829]

in some respects i think doing a mok up of a captured carrier could be a good thing, it shows how both forces deemed this a great vehicle, and although some may disagree the captured brens still play a part in the history of the carrier itself. i was going to paint my carrier caunter pattern then the german gerry cans i had i was going to paint up as german gerry cans with the affrika corps emblem on, i only re considered after the worry that people will see the swastika and associate me with the national socialist party. obviously dont want that.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

IMHO, I don't personally think doing up a perfectly good carrier then painting it as a "capture" serves our veterans honourably, never mind anyone else. Instead, it smacks of some sort of false adoration of the Wehrmacht, seen already in too many reenactors... and I've seen first-hand the impressions some of them have left with those who once faced them for real, so long ago.

If you'd found a carrier with German colours and markings under layers of post-war paint, then I could see that being reproduced; but to the best of my knowledge, there are none anywhere, let alone in Canada. And even if I did find same and restored it accordingly, I would never wear feldgrau to parade it.

As a matter of fact, I don't think I'd ever parade it - it would mock those who once fought the Nazi horde.

The fact is that there are precious few carriers left throughout the world as it is, and each one is a testament to the courage and tenacity of those who had to ride them into battle. Better to dress them as representatives of Canadian units which once served our nation but no longer exist!

I hope that one day we might once again see a full carrier platoon on parade here in Canada... but with Canadian carriers. And lord knows, there are so many field-expedient variations which could be explored for re-creation! Not every restoration has to be factory-perfect - by the time the originals got to the front they were everything but...

Do what you wish - it's your carrier - but bear my words in mind. Yes, there were "captures"... Jeeps, trucks, carriers, everything up to and including Sherman tanks; but what does re-creating these accomplish, other than 'wasting' an otherwise perfectly good Canadian restoration??

Geoff

[hrpearce]

There are still raw emotions and fresh memories of the war with the senior citizens of all sides and I personally would not want to upset anyone. If we have smething of theirs that we captured we should keep it as we used it and if they have ours they should keep it the way they used it. It keeps the history alive without treading on toes. thats my thoughts for what they are worth.

[JTH]

Originally Posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball

IMHO, I don't personally think doing up a perfectly good carrier then painting it as a "capture" serves our veterans honourably, never mind anyone else. Instead, it smacks of some sort of false adoration of the Wehrmacht, seen already in too many reenactors... and I've seen first-hand the impressions some of them have left with those who once faced them for real, so long ago.

If you'd found a carrier with German colours and markings under layers of post-war paint, then I could see that being reproduced; but to the best of my knowledge, there are none anywhere, let alone in Canada. And even if I did find same and restored it accordingly, I would never wear feldgrau to parade it.

As a matter of fact, I don't think I'd ever parade it - it would mock those who once fought the Nazi horde.

The fact is that there are precious few carriers left throughout the world as it is, and each one is a testament to the courage and tenacity of those who had to ride them into battle. Better to dress them as representatives of Canadian units which once served our nation but no longer exist!

I hope that one day we might once again see a full carrier platoon on parade here in Canada... but with Canadian carriers. And lord knows, there are so many field-expedient variations which could be explored for re-creation! Not every restoration has to be factory-perfect - by the time the originals got to the front they were everything but...

Do what you wish - it's your carrier - but bear my words in mind. Yes, there were "captures"... Jeeps, trucks, carriers, everything up to and including Sherman tanks; but what does re-creating these accomplish, other than 'wasting' an otherwise perfectly good Canadian restoration??

Geoff

Thanks Geoff and I will carefully add your thoughts to the process. One of the reasons I posted this question here was to get opinions on all aspects of this proposal. I am not hard over on my choice by any means.

There are of course varying thoughts on all that we do. If I chose the WASP someone would ask what it was for and while I would clearly not answer "Roasting folks from a distance" although it would be patently obvious that is what it could (and was) used for. We are very careful at the venues we attend as to whether or not dewats are displayed - even this provokes comments from some folks.

Thin skin vehicles are usually safe and we can always make the claim that "this is the vehicle that helped win the war" with no outward display of aggression ("Happy" little jeeps). Any true fighting vehicle can provoke negative comment. Heck we have even had to defend the "American" star on our vehicles to irate folks who did not know the true story. Most calm down when we explain it (especially when you point out it's crooked) but some don't.

In any event, far be it from me to provoke a veteran, since, as they say "I are one" and am very sensitive to the issues.

Clearly more thought needed.

thanks again

Jeff