Vehicle Markings

[Jim Price]

In addition to the company and division markings on my F8, I need to have stars on both doors as well as the top of the cab. What size stars do I need to use for each location?

I also need to have the vehicle number stenciled on the doors. What size should the letters/numbers be?

Regards,
Jim

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jim Price

I need to have stars on both doors as well as the top of the cab. What size stars do I need to use for each location?

Jim,

I think you did a great job restoring your F8. But why do you "need" to have stars on your truck? These were NW European invasion markings, and by this time the 8-cwt truck was no longer in front-line use. As per the manual, by 1944 they were "used only in limited numbers in the UK as general purpose load carrier for supplies and stores over good roads by CRU (Canadian Reinforcement Unit) or other base units."

Why not do it up as one of the trucks that were in use in at the "home front" in the UK or back in Canada?

Regards,
Hanno

[cletrac (RIP)]

You could always put a roundel on the roof like they had in Italy.

[Jim Price]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

I think you did a great job restoring your F8. But why do you "need" to have starts on your truck? These were NW European invasion markings, and by this time the 8-cwt truck was no longer in front-line use. As per the manual, by 1944 they were "used only in limited numbers in the UK as general purpose load carrier for supplies and stores over good roads by CRU (Canadian Reinforcement Unit) or other base units."

Why not do it up as one of the trucks that were in use in at the "home front" in the UK or back in Canada?

Hanno,
Thanks for your quick response and kind remarks! Lately I've been apprised that there were 8 cwts in limited use in Europe after the invasion. This information served as the basis for my using the markings of The Queen's Own Rifles on my truck. It's my understanding they were used as radio trucks as well as ammo/supply trucks.

I will say that the preponderance of pictures show the 15 cwt and larger trucks in European service.

Regards,
Jim

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jim Price

What size stars do I need to use for each location?

Jim,

If you made up your mind already and are adamant to add stars, simply follow the wartime "Recognition marks White stars five pointed" instructions courtesy of Steve Guthrie in the Crooked white star thread.

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jim Price

Lately I've been apprised that there were 8 cwts in limited use in Europe after the invasion. This information served as the basis for my using the markings of The Queen's Own Rifles on my truck. It's my understanding they were used as radio trucks as well as ammo/supply trucks.

Jim,

You are of course free to mark your truck any way you like, but for history's sake, I would like to see some evidence of 8-cwt CMP trucks in service in NWE after D-Day.

You could consider marking the truck as a Queen's Own Rifles' vehicle during training in the UK before D-Day, when no white stars were applied yet?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Jim Price]

Hanno,
I'm not attached to the stars at all, I just want the truck to be correctly marked. Personally, I could never understand why it was necessary for everyone to use the white star and certainly appreciate why the Canadians tilted it to differentiate their vehicles from an American ones.

I'll certainly consider your suggestions and, for the interim, will limit my additional markings to the bridge plate and the vehicle number. After all I've put into this truck I don't want to spoil its looks with inapproprite markings!

Regards,
Jim

[Mike K]

I would think that it is likely the 8 cwts saw more active service in Nth. Africa than any other region. I mean front line service with bullets flying around. They were issued to allied and Commonwealth forces there in fair numbers.
Mike

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Jim Price

... I just want the truck to be correctly marked ... After all I've put into this truck I don't want to spoil its looks with inapproprite markings!

Hi Jim;

First off - In answer to your question, the height of the prefix (which would be the letters 'CZ' in this case) and numbers for the Census Number (in White) is 3½ inches.

Secondly - in regards to your "After all I've put into this truck I don't want to spoil its looks with inapproprite markings":

- your Arm of Service (AoS) Marking is off, it should be '60' on a Green background (see example attached) not on a Black background - the Arm of Service Serial '60' on a Green background was used by the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada from approx. 20 May 1942 onwards.

- the formation sign of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division was a Gold (or Yellow) Maple Leaf on a French Grey background (see example attached), yours seems to look more like that of the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division - on a Royal Blue background (see example attached).

- the AoS and Formation markings on the front of your truck are on the wrong sides, they should be the other way around.

Sorry, but you did say that you didn't want to spoil its looks with inapproprite markings.

Hope this helps.


Cheers

[cletrac (RIP)]

This is the only reference I have of an 8cwt in northern Europe after Normandy. It's a wireless version and I can't tell if there's a star on the roof or not.
This is the maple leaf off my HUP.

[Jim Price]

Mark,
Thanks for the measurement on the census letters/numbers. By the way, do you have any suggestions as to what number might be appropriate for the truck's use by The Queen's Own Rifles?

The day I took the pictures of the truck that shows the markings it was overcast and made the colors look much darker than what they actually are. The "60" is on a rifle green background, the correct dark green background while the 3rd Division is actuall very close to the one one the left in your pictures. Mine might have a very,very slight light blue cast to it.

As for the markings on the front, I was given a drawing that shows the "60" on the left side front and back. Will post it in the near future.

Thanks for your interest in helping make my vehicle correct!

Regards,
Jim

[Jim Price]

Mark,
Below are the pages I received from one of the Forum members showing the placement which I used. Although not too clear, click to magnify them and you can see that the unit markings are shown to be on the port side front and back.

I checked Colin Steven's site and found the following:

" A typcial Canadian jeep in Normandy would have the following markings:
1. Unit sign - On starboard side of w/s and port rear bumperette.
2. Formation Sign - On front Port side and rear starboard bumperette."

Both methods make sense to me but I'd prefer to have the correct placement. If anyone else reading this post has any further information, please respond.

Regards,
Jim

[cliff]

Jim you have the markings on the correct sides of your truck although they usualy went on a plate mounted off the bumper although this may have been a latter type. The plates had a slip in painted plate marked with the unit marking on one side and 'PASS' on the other. In convoy situations if you broke down or stopped you changed the plate around to read 'PASS' and then convoy trucks behind you knew to pass you and keep going. Excellent work by the way.

EDIT
Jim on further checking Mark Tonner is correct and your markings are on the wrong side. It may be the confusion between what are "Unit" markings and what are "Formation" markings that have led to this mistake happening

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Jim Price

Mark,
Below are the pages I received from one of the Forum members showing the placement which I used. Although not too clear, click to magnify them and you can see that the unit markings are shown to be on the port side front and back.

I checked Colin Steven's site and found the following:

" A typcial Canadian jeep in Normandy would have the following markings:
1. Unit sign - On starboard side of w/s and port rear bumperette.
2. Formation Sign - On front Port side and rear starboard bumperette."

Both methods make sense to me but I'd prefer to have the correct placement. If anyone else reading this post has any further information, please respond.

Regards,
Jim

Jim;

The attached illustration is from VEHICLE DATA BOOK, CANADIAN ARMY OVERSEAS, Fourth Section - TECHNICAL INFORMATION PAGES - VEHICLE MARKING SIGNS - published by The Branch of the Quartermaster General, Canadian Military Headquarters (London), March 1944.

(The second attachment shows the applicable markings for your vehicle)

As you can see from the illustration, your placement of the Arm of Service Marking ('60') and the Formation Sign (3rd Cdn Inf Div) on the vehicle front are wrong.

Also, the note regarding the background colour of the Arm of Service marking as being 'rifle green' on the illustration you posted is wrong. Even though the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada are a 'Rifle' regiment, the background colour of their Arm of Service marking was the shade of green that I posted in my earlier post and have re-attached to this post, it was not rifle green.

All the component units of the 8th Canadian Infantry Brigade had the same colour shade of green as the background colour on their individual unit Arm of Service marking. The reason behind this was so that the user unit of a vehicle could be readily identified by the combination of the number on and the background colour of the AoS marking (in this case '60' on green) and the Formation sign carried on the vehicle (in this case the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division) - the '60' on green, with the 3rd Cdn Inf Div formation sign - identified the vehicle as belonging to the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada (AoS Serial '60'), of the 8th Canadian Infantry Brigade (background colour green), of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division (maple leaf on french grey background).

The green background colour of the AoS marking in conjunction with the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division, also identified the user unit as being a part of the intermediate (or second) brigade of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division. This held true if the vehicle carried the formation sign of the 1st Canadian Infantry Division or of the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division, the green coloured background of the AoS marking identified the user unit as being a part of the intermediate (or second) brigade - 2nd Canadian Infantry Brigade in the case of the 1st Cdn Inf Div and the 5th Canadian Infantry Brigade in the case of the 2nd Cdn Inf Div.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Jim Price]

Mark,
Thanks for the additional reference on the placement of the markings. I'll change the position of the ones on the front of my truck to match the regulations.

As for the background color for the "60", I did contact the curator at the QOR museum before having the markings made and was advised that the dark green was the proper shade. I used as a reference the green background on their opening page and was advised that it needed to be a bit darker. See http://www.qor.com/ Are you saying that there were two shades of green, one for the vehicle marking and the one I used which was for something else other than a vehicle?

I appreciate very much your interest in helping me get this right!

Thanks!
Jim

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Jim Price

Are you saying that there were two shades of green, one for the vehicle marking and the one I used which was for something else other than a vehicle?

Hi Jim;

Yes, the shade of green as per my earlier posting was the correct one for the background colour of a vehicle Arm of Service marking for the Queen's Own Rifles and all other component units of the 8th Canadian Infantry Brigade. The same holds true for the 2nd Canadian Infantry Brigade and the 5th Canadian Infantry Brigade and not to confuse you, but this same green was used by the 10th Canadian Infantry Brigade (of the 4th Cdn Armd Div) and the 11th Canadian Infantry Brigade (of the 5th Cdn Armd Div).

An Arm of Service marking with a green background when seen on a vehicle in conjunction with either of the 1st, 2nd or 3rd Canadian Infantry Division formation sign would identify that vehicle as belonging to the intermediate (or second) brigade of the infantry division whose formation sign the vehicle bore.

In the case of the 10th and 11th Canadian Infantry Brigades, the green background colour of the Arm of Service marking on their vehicles, in conjunction with either of the 4th or 5th Canadian Armoured Division formation sign would identify that vehicle as belonging to the infantry brigade of the armoured division whose formation sign the vehicle bore.

I fear that when you contacted the QOR Museum curator, he may have misunderstood your question/request, because the answer he gave of dark green (or rifle green) being the proper shade, is correct for the identifying colour of the Regiment (used for unit signs, company signs, etc., within the unit lines), but was not the correct colour used for the background colour of the Queen's Own Rifles AoS marking while they served as a component part of the 8th Canadian Infantry Brigade of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division.

I'll give you another example, the background colour of the Arm of Service marking of The Royal Canadian Regiment during the period of the Second World War was red, but the identifying colours of the Regiment were then (as now) blue, amber, black.

What I'm trying to explain, is that, YES, the background colour used on a unit's Arm of Service marking was something totally different and separate from the identifying colour(s) of a unit(/regiment) - one had nothing to do with the other.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

Jim, I forgot to mention that the two other 'Rifle' regiments that served in the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division, The Royal Winnipeg Rifles and The Regina Rifle Regiment, even though they were both 'Rifle' regiments, both had red as the background colour of their respective Arm of Service marking - both were component units of the 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade - the senior (or first brigade) of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division.

[Jim Price]

Mark,
Thanks so much for your very well written response to my question regarding the shades of green. I'll certainly have new markings using the shade of green you identified as correct made up for the front and back of my truck!

Best regards,
Jim

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Jim Price

Mark,
Thanks so much for your very well written response to my question regarding the shades of green. I'll certainly have new markings using the shade of green you identified as correct made up for the front and back of my truck!

Best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim;

Glad I could help.

I also just wanted to show you three photos of vehicles of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division from 1944-45 in NWE. Although they are black & white, you can see how the french grey background of the formation sign (circled in red) shows up as a light background to the maple leaf.

Attachements 1 & 2:

The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa (M.G.) - the divisional Machine Gun Battalion

Credit: Lieut. H. Gordon Aikman / Canada Dept. of National Defence / Library and Archives Canada / PA-140192
Credit: Lieut. Donald I. Grant / Canada Dept. of National Defence / Library and Archives Canada / PA-138372

Attachment 3:

4th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.C.A. - the divisional Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment
Credit: Lieut. Ken Bell / Canada Dept. of National Defence / Library and Archives Canada / PA-162434

Cheers

[Jim Price]

Mark,
Thanks for the photos of the three vehicles with the 3rd Division markings. Below is a better photo of the 3rd Division marking I used on my truck. It's affixed to the side of my Toyota truck which is a pewter gray. By the way, I took this picture in some good sunlight. Let me know what you think of the color now.

Regards,
Jim

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Jim Price

Mark,
Thanks for the photos of the three vehicles with the 3rd Division markings. Below is a better photo of the 3rd Division marking I used on my truck. It's affixed to the side of my Toyota truck which is a pewter gray. By the way, I took this picture in some good sunlight. Let me know what you think of the color now.

Regards,
Jim

Great Jim!

[peter simundson]

When Jim marked his truck I gave him copies of ORIGINAL marking instructions for the truck. This clearly showed where they went front and back and what size they were.
The drawing he submitted is the original drawing! The file name is "Canadian Corps vehicle Serial Numbers and Colour Markings, Copy 17, Secret"
It shows Div. Sign on the right and Unit side on the left.
You will note it is reversed on the back of the vehicle, so they are on the same side front to back.
.
Next. No QOR marked vehicle ever had the leaf green colour under the 60
The Unit background was a dark geen, the same dark green that backed up the badge on their beret. Bill Beardmore (anybody remember him?) had an original decal tac sign and Unit sign and the colour was French Grey under the yellow maple leaf (so who the hell had gold paint?) It was dark Green under the 60.
This was verified by Stan Biggs (WW2 Carrier Commander), Jack Martin,
Mortar Crew commander, and Clay Bell who painted these signs on in WW2.
Used these details to mark my 15 cwt truck when I did it 10 years ago.