LP2A found and recovered

[Justin Pollard]

another pic,just for interest.

[Roddy de Normann]

Jack -

I have been attempting to look at all T-numbers and their national derivitives - especially the three series in Australia and the later UK (ZR & ZT) & S African U series. Shane Lovell quite rightly advised me I was on a hiding to nothing, especially as it would be v difficult to get access to the Rego Books. I am attempting to match UK T number with AIF/AFM, C Series and VRN Series where they match. I have had some interesting hits, especially where one finds the correlation to issue fm UK and their subsequent imports into Australia.

To that end, I was wondering if it would be possible to have access to your pics from those books ? I would be delighted to send on the work I have done to date. If you send me your e-mail address (mine is Roddy1011@yahoo.co.uk) I can send it on. Ultimately, we could then merge our efforts and post it all back here...

Look forward to possible hearing from you

Roddy

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Roddy1011

I am attempting to match UK T number with AIF/AFM, C Series and VRN Series where they match. I have had some interesting hits, especially where one finds the correlation to issue fm UK and their subsequent imports into Australia.

Roddy

I didn't think there would be any matches, what hits have you had? The records of ex-WD softskin vehicles transferred/bought by the AIF in North Africa show the original WD class and numbers just prefixed by AIF.

There are plenty of instances of Ex-British refugee vehicles from Malaya or Singapore being issued with C numbers/ARNs but retaining their WD numbers [url=http://orbit.dnsrouter.com/~mlu/forums/showthread.php?t=7759&page=2(Such as these FGTs)[/url], perhaps due to some legal reason, but I have not yet seen any evidence that the UK Carriers in Australia received an ARN, just retained their WD number. As the C numbers/ARN system was not used for Aust carriers much after the 2nd half of '42 (by which time, I would have thought the "Refugee" supply would have dried up anyway), in leiu of a hull serial number, they seem to have just kept the WD T number.

[Roddy de Normann]

Tony -

You are of course correct as far as the carriers are concerned. Lt Tanks and various other bits & bobs I believe were incorporated. Having said that, do we know how many LP2As etc were left behind in the ME ? Could an AIF numbered veh have been incorporated into the UK system ?

I was very interested to see you say that Rego Books 1 to 4 were solely AIF Nos. What is the no. span therefore ? I was always under the impression that AIF & AMF could be issued side-by-side ? For instance, did the Light Horse Regiments receive AIF numbered vehicles ? Also, if a veh went from an AIF to AMF unit, did the number change to reflect this ? Or had the C System/Hull Numbering come in by then.

I have trawled through any number of the Infantry War Diaries on line, but with very little success in tracking down numbers. The Armoured Regiments have been more forthcoming. Again, thanks to Shane, I do have listings of some Armoured Regiment carriers transfered to either LH or MMG Bns.

I would be delighted to send you what I have if you are interested. Send me your e-mail to mine posted above on my initial request to Jack and I will do so.

Again, many thanks for your insights

Roddy

[Tony Smith]

Sorry, I must have misunderstood that you had found some connections with UK T nos and AIF T nos.

Originally Posted by Roddy1011

I was very interested to see you say that Rego Books 1 to 4 were solely AIF Nos. What is the no. span therefore ?

The AWM files are:
AWM 126~01 vol: AIF '1 ~~ 6112' pre WW1, WW1, post WW1, WW2.
AWM 126~02 vol: AIF '6113 ~~ 12325' WW2.
AWM 126~03 vol: AIF '12326 ~~ 18867' WW2.
AWM 126~04 vol: AIF '18868 ~~ 25974' WW2.
AWM 126~05 vol: '00001 ~~ 13807' 1917~1960
AWM 126~06 vol: '13808 ~~ 20076' 1938~1954
AWM 126~07 vol: '20077 ~~ 26346' 1938~1960
AWM 126~08 vol: '26347 ~~ 32616' 1938~1962
AWM 126~09 vol: '32617 ~~ 40471' 1938~1948
AWM 126~10 vol: '40472 ~~ 48358' 1942~1964
AWM 126~11 vol: '48359 ~~ 59264' 1942~1977
AWM 126~12 vol: '59265 ~~ 66912' 1942~1969
AWM 126~13 vol: '66913 ~~ 74560' 1943~1973
AWM 126~14 vol: '74561 ~~ 82208' 1942~1978
AWM 126~15 vol: '82209 ~~ 89842' 1942~1974
AWM 126~16 vol: '89843 ~~ 97415' 1944~1982
AWM 126~17 vol: '97416 ~~ 105866' 1938~1990
AWM 126~18 vol: '105-867 ~~ 114-437' 1938~1992
AWM 126~19 vol: '114-438 ~~ 122-646' 1926~1989
AWM 126~20 vol: '122-647 ~~ 132-320' 1938~1983
AWM 126~21 vol: '132-321 ~~ 140-600' 1942~1990
AWM 126~22 vol: '140-601 ~~ 150-896' 1942~1990
AWM 126~23 vol: '150-897 ~~ 159-509' 1942~1993
AWM 126~24 vol: '159-510 ~~ 168-121' 1941~1980
AWM 126~25 vol: '168-122 ~~ 177-970' 1945~1990
AWM 126~26 vol: '177-971 ~~ 187-538' 1945~1990
AWM 126~27 vol: Various Misc~~ 1954~1966 Armour, Aircraft, Landing craft, Plant, etc.

Many of the early AIF numbers in Ledger 01 were for Horsedrawn vehicles of the 1st AIF (and therefore do not have the WD vehicle classes), but some numbers were re-allocated for mechanised vehicles in WW2. Also, many of the low numbers recorded in Ledger 05 are the early system of Department of Defence "DD^" numbers and were replaced by the "Cxxxx" system, which in turn became ARNs. The books do not specify at what date these changes came into effect. There is also no information regarding which units that vehicles were issued to, but there is occaisional disposal information which records a unit, which more often than not is a Base Ordnance Depot or Supply Battalion.

Light Horse Regiments were Militia units and not part of the AIF, although some re-equipped and retrained as MMG Bn's, Armoured or Mechanised Cavalry units, with some transferring to the AIF.

It is clear that just about every book was running concurrently with other books, and that numbers were not issued consecutively.

[Roddy de Normann]

Tony -

Many thanks for posting the Rego vol details...

Following up from an earlier question, would an issued AIF become a C-Number if the veh was to join an AMF unit ? If so, I presume that AIF units would use AIFT-numbers while the AMF units would have used C-Numbers both at the same time ? On veh re-allocation the AIF-T would have/could have changed to a C-Number and the original AIFT used on something else ? Certainly this is how I interpret Michael Cecil's description of it.

For instance, I have logged:

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AIF T-1860 (Hull No: 71)

Carrier MG (Aust) LP1

1st (Australian) Armoured Regiment & 4th (Australian) Light Horse

Veh Engine No: R3640F

- 8 Feb 42 - Veh transfered fm 1 AAR to 4 LH on reorg of 2 Cav Div to 2 Mot Div - 1 AAR War Diary, AWM52-1-5-39-001

- 18 Jun 42 - VRN changed to Hull No Type by Victoria LoC Area instr - AWM Rego Book, AIF 261/12 via Shane Lovell Archive

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This veh changed hands before the Hull Numbering came in although the latter was noted and thus likely to have changed when ordered to do so. Would this veh have first sported AIF T-1860 and then changed to an AMF C-Number ?

What I would love to do is note down all the Rego material and have a really good trawl through the war diaries to attempt to work some of this out ! Do you know of anyone who has gone through the Dept of Interior files looking for C-Number info ?

Roddy

[Tony Smith]

Vehicles INTENDED for the AIF were issued AIF numbers, while vehicles INTENDED for local service were not. There are many instances where Militia units possessed AIF reg vehicles, and vice versa. The reg was not changed each time a vehicle undertook an inter-unit transfer.

Progressively from Dec '41 ALL AIF registration numbers were cancelled and moved to the C system. As you could imagine, this would take some time and was still happening a year later. Once the vehicle was taken off the AIF system, the number was not re-allocated.