16 WW2 Stuart tanks imported into the UK

[zemsi]

... wow, 16 early M3's were imported from Brazil into the UK. Read the full story on milweb.

Somebody told me the the starting price is around Euro 80'000 per piece...

Fantastic that they have been saved. I guess we'll have some more Stuarts at the coming Tanks in Town Events

[Ryan]

Hi Zemsi,
Fascinating story to read via your link. Terrific pics as well. Well done to the chap in Brazil too for holding onto them for so long.

[Robin Craig]

From Mike Stallwood himself, the asking price is 50,000 pounds a unit

robin

[malcolm erik bogaert]

They would seem pretty expensive against my reserve condition T55 MBT which are only 47,000.0 euros each ex Helsenki.

[chris vickery]

With all due respect Malcolm, a T55, be it as it may, is not WW2 armour...

In recent years the prices of anything WW2 have dramatically increased and I believe the scope of this recovery of the quantity of original Stuarts found in one place is remarkable.

As stated by the vendor himself, there are already deposits down on many units and at any rate, he is in no rush to sell or offer bargain basement prices once the first few pay for the lot.

[malcolm erik bogaert]

Chris yes that a fair point but at some time all this WW2 stuff is going to dry up....and its not everybody that can afford those prices...even old range hulks are fetching crazy money...my own preference is a working tank ready to run for reasonable bucks! best regards malcolm

[chris vickery]

given a choice Malcolm, I would probably op for the as new conditon T55 as well.

[malcolm erik bogaert]

Chris if Santa is good to you this year I can always send one over!best regardfs malcolm

[Mike K]

This type of thing throws up the old dilemma: should we profit from history .

Me. I think of the people who had to drive those tanks in the most arduous conditions e.g., in the North African desert ..it would have been hell, the heat and not to mention being shot at . Did those young guys make huge profits for their endevours ?

Call me anti-capitalist.. call me a socialist.. call me a communist even.. it's a conscience thing for me... and it's why the world is going downhill fast.. greed.

Mike

[malcolm erik bogaert]

couldnt agree more with you ......thats why the world is in shit shape at the moment...greedy bankers etc.....myself I knew things would go pear-shaped when you have pen-pushing accountants running the MOD instead of good old fashioned Generals as for those that made the supreme sacrafice on all sides and fronts...the modern world dosnt care...apart from payng lip-service once a year best regards malcolm

[chris vickery]

This brings up an interesting debate, one that I have heard many times over...

Remember that if it wasn't for the many vendors of militaria and mv related parts we as a hobby would not exist.

In defence of those who do make a profit, it is fair afterall to make something as one needs to make a decent and reasonable living.
Many of these vendors have laid out huge sums of money and investment over the years to aquire, sort, and store much of the surplus parts we are fortunate to still be able to buy.

Afterall, I am sure that the importation of the Stuarts was a very large investment, not to mention a risk and I am sure was a lot of leg work, legalities and pure dirt and sweat....

[malcolm erik bogaert]

again a fair point...I can remember years ago my old dad used to buy ex WD motorcycles and the like for his own use and everybody used to laugh..in the 1970's he was exporting machinery to the Arab world in the shape of Range-Rovers...he was in business and had to make a profit to survive...Mike is a very shrewd and hard headed businesman but again he's doing it for profit and not to see more tanks in Mons in 2009!most of us in this hobby are collectors who sometimes are able to turn a quick buck or two.....dont be fooled by the big boys they would have the shirt off your back in ther name of profit!! best regards malcolm

[Neil Ashley]

As Chris has commented if it were not for the dealers the hobby would be a lot poorer.

When I first joined the MVT at the end of the seventies you could count the number of tanks in private ownership on one hand. Now as we all know its a rich mans hobby and their are large numbers of rare tanks in the UK.

Those old enough will remember Ian Mcgregor importing the first of the Canadian Shermans and Sextons from Portugal and selling them at bargan basement prices off the dockside. Unfortunately it will not happen now.

Two or three years ago I was told about a batch of rebuilt unissued T34/85 in eastern europe being cut up because the dealers did not consider there was a enough profit in them to warrant importing.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

This cache of Stuart tanks was not a secret to those in the know, as are other caches. Yet, it takes several entrepeneurs (Mike worked with Joop Staman on this deal) working together to finance, buy, ship and sell caches of WW2 material like this and make them available to collectors. Of course these are shrewd businessmen, otherwise they would no embark on such an adventure and not go bankrupt! But it´s up to the collector to decide whether they get a good deal out of buying them. It´s mostly up to private enterprise to secure these historic artefacts. And yes, sadly sometimes they are worth more as scrap than collectibles. But if it´s up to the military, every old tank would get shot up on the range!

H.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

This cache of Stuart tanks was not a secret to those in the know, as are other caches. Yet, it takes several entrepeneurs (Mike worked with Joop Staman on this deal) working together to finance, buy, ship and sell caches of WW2 material like this and make them available to collectors. Of course these are shrewd businessmen, otherwise they would no embark on such an adventure and not go bankrupt! But it´s up to the collector to decide whether they get a good deal out of buying them. It´s mostly up to private enterprise to secure these historic artefacts. And yes, sadly sometimes they are worth more as scrap than collectibles. But if it´s up to the military, every old tank would get shot up on the range!

Hanno has a point... whether we consider these deals as "deals" or not is irrelevant - either the vehicles are available or they're not. Perhaps ever. If someone chooses to invest a fortune of his own resources in sourcing, transporting and shipping them into one location, who are we to argue? They may otherwise have ended up as fodder for the scrappie - and god knows that old steel is worth enough!

The day of cheap anything (let alone armour) has passed... it's now up to the collectors to define how much something is worth. Either you want it or you don't... but don't bitch too much, because one day there won't be any more left!!!! Yeah, that's a scary thought...

[malcolm erik bogaert]

as Mhr.Spoelsta states those in the know...know where the stuff is!Bye the way can anybody help my old army buddy Doug Matheson in his quest for 2 pounder cases! best regards malcolm

[Mike K]

Interesting comments and a range of views from the forum members.

Just to add to this: tonight on ABC national radio .. Phillip Adams late night live show is having a story on the plundering of WW2 aircraft from the Pacific Islands by individuals who then sell the aircraft to collectors for up to $1,000,000 U.S.

I will put a link to the show.. anyone can download it or listen live .

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/

The show is on air 10pm Eastern time here. They will put it on the site for download later on.

The point I was making is that there is now a culture of this sort of thing ... it's accepted as being the norm ... and it flows right down to us and our vehicle collecting, even onto militaria collecting with the exorbitant prices you now see .

As for dealers - I avoid them like the plague..Sometimes you do need that hard to find part and you have little choice ..so you you hand over the cash . Having said that , you can save yourself a lot of money by repairing parts and being hands on . I installed used rings from a donor motor in my C8 engine and it runs fine ... the rings were almost new and the correct size ( standard) .. so why buy another set. I sort of get by as a restorer. I've seen some highly skilled people who have incredible skills and ability when it comes to repairing old vehicles.. we are all different I guess.

Mike

[Bob McNeill]

Whats the definition of a Dealer, is it the bloke who collects several wrecks to make one Good One then flogs off the remains to cover costs of the work he couldn,t do. OR is it the chap who does all the running around, storing, listing & cleaning of the bits we eagerly look for at swap meets and boot sales. If you,ve got it and I want it, it,ll cost unless I,ve got something U want.

[Ian Pullen]

As we all know gentlemen.
Änything" is only worth what someone is prepared to pay (or barter) for it.
Desperation can add a huge amount to the value of an item......

[kevin powles]

I saw a Mk2 stuart on E-bay within the last year and it went for £14000, it was an elderly restoration and was a runner.

[Neil Ashley]

It would be interesting to know whats has happened to the Argentian Shermans.

Are they still in service or scraped.

[zemsi]

... here's an article in French, but they speak of 20 saved tanks, not just 16 (deux M3 et dix-huit M3A1 Stuart)???

[RichardT10829]

not sure if Stallwood is running Staman International (i thought he was R n R services) anyway.... there are a load at Staman for sale POA of course, the advert can be traced from www.milweb.net in the for sale section, its top of the pile !

on the price front i agree in some respect that you cant put a price on saving a peice of world history and yes very soon they will almost all be gone.


Mind i have to say in the past Mike has always been a fair trader with me, even offered me a complete T16 with 14k on the clocks (requiring resto) for £6000 which is cheap in retrospect.

if i win the lottery i will add a grant to my list of carriers wanted and perhaps the odd sherman

HOWEVER.

i know of unscrupulous people that buy this stuff in for scrap prices than slap a massive price on re sale, i know business is business but surely a tru armour purist would be more concerned about getting the machines to good homes bringing them back to life.

however again... on the flip side at least the 50K price tag would ensure a buyer who had the funds to complete the build rather than let it rot away in the back yard.

50K can get a half decent house so you would need to be loaded or part of a syndicate to afford one.

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Hello, I visited Joop Staman's yard a couple of weeks ago and the first 2 bagdes of Stuarts were sold the same day as they arrived at the yard, so if you want to have one you must have a lot of money and be very quickly .

A happy 2009

Hendrik van Oorspronk

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here´s a pic of Joop, Mike and some of their customers checking out the hardware

[RichardT10829]

choice of two, both running (Original 9 cylinder Guiberson diesel radial engines) and both run and drive, located UK, i have no attachment to the seller.

" Original 9 cylinder Guiberson diesel radial engine.

Running and driving.
Excellent restoration project and investment.
Large stocks of spare parts available.
Rubber pad tracks - ideal for road use.
Delivery possible in UK or Europe.
An opportunity to own one of the rarest WW2 tanks - very few were fitted with the Guiberson engine and just a handful survive now.
Choice of two. "

Kerry Cheese 01233 820 219

currently on www.milweb.net



price not known but i doubt they will be less than 30K a peice however a nice opertunity for someone



Rich

[Neil Ashley]

The Bovington Stuart is also the diesel version and I remember them claiming at the time it was only cartridge starting like some aircraft.

I assume this was because their tank was missing the starter?