LPG fuel around the world...

[Howard]

Originally Posted by rob love

There may well be many new developements that make propane more viable. Are the new systems in union with the emmisions control systems? Does the Oxygen sensor (and the host of others in the emmision system) control the fuel's injection system? Back in the day, the propane system merely replaced a carburetor, and was not tied in to the engines' computer...

We fit two kinds of LPG system to vehicles: a)mixer, b)VSI
a) Mixer systems we simply install a mixer ring somewhere in the air intake system. It works like a carbie in that it creates a venturi and draws LPG vapor with the air on the way through. If the vehicle that this system is fitted to has an o2 sensor, we also fit a 'stepper motor' device that uses the data from the o2 sensor to vary the amount of LPG vapor delivered.
Non o2 mixer systems use about 20-25% more gas than petrol. Mixer systems with an o2 sensor are more efficient and you can expect to use 10-15% more gas than petrol.
b) VSI (Vapor Sequential Injection) systems are something else. With this system, we fit a gas injector into the inlet manifold right next to the petrol injector. This system is superior because it uses ALL of the engine management system data that the petrol system uses, eg, MAF, MAP, o2, knock, air temp, coolant temp, etc etc. Having all of this data allows the LPG ECU to trim fuel & ignition strategies to the point where power & consumption figures on LPG mirrored petrol's performance, to within 2 or 3%.
I should note that some vehicles return better figures than others, having said that I have a customer with a 1 year old Falcon XR6 (190kw?) who gets significantly BETTER economy from LPG than petrol.
Naturally, the more efficient an engine is at the start, the more efficient it will be on LPG.

[Howard]

As for head gear damage, it is a real problem. However, it is one that is not to hard to overcome. Most Aussies I'm sure will be familiar with 'Flashlube' which is an upper cylinder lubricant added to the petrol tank of pre-unleaded vehicles. Flashlube make a dispenser kit that will add around 500ml per 5000km into the intake system & help protect the headgear. We fit this on every vehicle except Falcons. I am sure there would be something equivalent available elsewhere in the world...
Some vehicles (eg Toyota Workmate Hilux 2wd, or the new Holden Rodeo) will always destroy their headgear, due to very soft metal headgear.

[Bob McNeill]

Regarding the situation in NSW and Historic rego, the RTA our govening state body says " the vehicle is to be as close to ORIGINAL as possible except for safety issues " since lpg requires an engineers ticket the vehicle has been MODIFIED so it is not eligable for Historic or Concessional rego.

[rob love]

This thread has had some very interesting information and anecdotes. Very informative to see the directions that LPG has gone, and the reliability achieved in the warmer climates.

One of the problems we had back in the day with the dual fuel system was that you either tuned up the vehicle for gas, or for propane. Or more often, you kind of struck a balance so that neither system was operating at it's peak efficiency. With todays computer systems I guess the end results could be much more favorable.

My guess was that we had seen the last of the propane vehicles in this part of the world, but I suppose we can never say never.

[cletrac (RIP)]

The big problem for these conversions is compression ratio. Propane needs a lot higher ratio to work properly. If you installed pistons that gave about 11 to 1 ratio that would solve some of it but there'd be no going back to gasoline. You'd still have the spare fuel portability issue and the cold weather thing. Rob mentioned minus 35 temps causing problems but at minus 40 propane simply won't vaporize. I worked on a seismograph crew in Alberta in the early 1970s and when it got lower than about 20 below F we'd light the tiger torch and direct the flickering flame at the 100 pound bottle for 15 or 20 minutes before the liquid would vaporize enough to make the torch burn properly. That made some of the crew get a little nervous but "ya gotta do what ya gotta do!" I remember filling those bottles for $3 but then crude oil was $1.86 a barrel too. Talk about the good old days!

[Lang]

You seem to have a serious problem in sub-zero temperatures and maybe Canadian gas use will require further development with heating units etc before it is universally acceptable. Of course in those temperatures EVERY engine has its problems - you don't see engine warmers on cars or aircraft in Australia.

Gas does not need higher compressions to work as well as petrol. If you read the above thread you will see that compression is not mentioned in the various problems discussed. There are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of vehicles in Australia alone running on gas conversions switching from petrol to gas as they drive along with no discernable change in performance or reliability.

I have probably 250,000km in dual fuel gas/petrol converted cars ranging from Ford V8's to Toyota and Nissan straight 6's to GM V6's. Apart from saving tens of thousands of dollars they all performed with reliability and performance equal to or better than their original petrol only brothers.

Don't give up Canada, I am sure there is a way to use LPG in a cold climate with a bit of inventive experimentation.

[Rob Beale]

When it comes out of the ground ,crude has a range of hydrocarbons from the lightest gas, Methane to the heaviest Bitumens. Refining separates the mix into fractions for users:
Methane is Natural Gas used in domestic homes and as CNG
Ethane gets used to make plastics and stuff
Propane is usually mixed with Butane and sold as LPG
Butane is used on its own in cigarette lighters
after that we get liquids which are usually mixed so:
Pentane thru Octane and beyond become petrol (or gasoline)
then heavier fractions make things like parafin, kerosene, diesel etc
then come the various grades of lubricating oils
The stuff that stays solid is used on the roads as bitumen,
and the gunk left over that is too soft for roading and too thick for fuel is used as bunker oil in ships, where they heat it to make it flow

That's it in a nut shell

If more LPG is used, mainly in the warmer climes, that will take the pressure off world demand for petrol, and help those in the cooler areas.

Rob

ps I used CNG vehicles at work in the 1980's and it was a pain in the butt, low power, low range, no roadside top ups. The taxi and bus industries loved it, but they were able to stay close to the refill station and one driver per vehicle helped too.

Another vehicle in the fleet (a Falcon) had dual fuel LPG / petrol and it had an incredible range, with barely noticeable power drop on LPG.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Lang

Don't give up Canada, I am sure there is a way to use LPG in a cold climate with a bit of inventive experimentation.

There certainly is: I wear a parka when I barbeque with it in January. If it's real cold I bring the bottle into the house for a spell to warm it first.

[Lang]

Originally Posted by Bob McNeill

Regarding the situation in NSW and Historic rego, the RTA our govening state body says " the vehicle is to be as close to ORIGINAL as possible except for safety issues " since lpg requires an engineers ticket the vehicle has been MODIFIED so it is not eligable for Historic or Concessional rego.

Bob,

I don't think that is an insurmountable obstacle.

What about all the hotrods and left to right hand drive conversions on concession rego. Describe your Blitz as a hotrod if you have to, you will still get concessional rego.

I think that a simple "There is no longer any leaded petrol so the vehicle has been forced to use a fuel which will now damage the engine. I am faced with a choice of making internal modifications to enable the vehicle to be safely used. I have a choice of rebuilding the whole engine and modifying valves etc or fitting the much more ecologically sound gas conversion."

There are lots of other ways to get a plate on a vintage gas powered car as well.

I am a great believer in just doing it - let them discover a regulatory problem with absolutely no extra information from you. If you volunteer to test the gallows trap door or if you blindly follow all the rules you are only encouraging the bastards!

Lang

[Andrew Morrison]

I run a car here in the UK which is on LPG gas.

The cost savings were what attracted me to this plus prior experience of it in Australia where as other have said it is a well established alternative fuel for vehicles.

Initially looked at doing the home brew bio diesel however when you did the sums it was too expensive compared with LPG. Even with the current waiving of fuel duty on home production / own use bio diesel.

Home brew bio diesel might have been OK before too many people started chasing the used chip oil. Once everyone wants something it is no longer a waste product you can just take away. It has now become a product to be sold to the highest bidder. Also with bio diesel you only have access to it at home. Once away from there you are back to petrol station prices.

I do about 250 miles a week and previously did this in an Mercedes A class manual 1.6 litre 4 cylinder petrol. Have swapped it for an automatic 4.6 litre v8 Range Rover on LPG. Fuel cost in real life driving over the same journey is about the same. Have driven on LPG then petrol however cannot tell the difference.

LPG tank replaced spare tyre so keep dual fuel capability if needed and no loss of interior carrying space.

Was concerned as most seem to be about my ability to locate a LPG filling station when away from home. Filling stations are not as common here as in Australia. Problem has been solved though as a list of all UK mainland filling stations can now be down loaded from the internet and put into your sat nav (Check before purchasing sat nav as not all brands are supported). This listing even includes price and opening times and is updated about every 2 weeks. Drove to the highlands of Scotland for a weeks holiday and even up there gas was viable as it was available in even the smallest village.

Downside is that there is no standard filling connection in Europe. Go to Southern Ireland and the connector is different. Believe there are 3 types in Europe just depends on the country you are in.