LPG fuel around the world...

[Dinty]

G'day All, I'm fairly certain that in NSW (OZ) you cannot have a vehicle on historic registration (club rego) that runs on LPG, maybe it should be considered by the relevant body but don't hold your breath cheers Dennis

[Ryan]

I can tell you Ford Australia's LPG straight six isn't a conversion of a petrol engine but a dedicated six cylinder with unique conrods, head, manifold and the list goes on. We've been building them since the AU Falcon and at peak demand were building over 120 ( mixed in with our standard and turbo ) out of 450 engines a day.
A couple of years back we were just a weekend away from putting the gas engine into our Territory SUV but the idea was canned from higher up.
It's just a pity that the "Gurus" in Marketing don't promote it well enough so that the wider public see the benefits. Most people are not aware we even make it. We don't all need the be running to 4 cylinder cars.
Oh well, we are still making them daily and they still make up a great deal of our production. Unfortunately our production will fall soon to just 255 engines a day as the public move away from "scary" large sixes.

On a side note I just got a gas conversion done just last week. After the government rebate I'll only be out of pocket $800. Which will be made back soon enough through the cheaper price of LPG at the pump.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Howard,

Thanks for bringing this up. I love LPG and have had a few cars running on LPG, see some of my (dated) notes of running a VW Beetle on LPG.

More later.

H.

[Lang]

I think the Canadian experiments look a bit like a dog and pony show operation testing an interesting concept in the early days of development.

Things have become much more scientific and everything is now built on well founded engineering experiments and millions of hours of successful real-life operation. I think if the Canadian experiments were repeated now just using off the shelf equipment that has been developed they would have very different results.

There is no problem using gas on modern cars because they have all the hardened valve components to cater for modern lead-free petrol and can handle gas OK. If you are worried there are plenty of lead replacement additives which can be used in the oil or in the occasional tank of petrol if you have dual fuel. The metering bottles from Moreys and others direct into the intake are supposed to be excellent.

In older engines gas will give you the the same problems as lead free petrol so the remedies are the same(hardened valve seats or lead replacement additives)

[Lang]

Dennis,

There are no restrictions on club registration and LPG in QLD (I don't get the connection). I know one NSW owner on club plates and LPG.

Could you check to see what the rules are - we don't want them coming across the border particularly if some public servant has a "well founded reason" for the restriction. We can then help you fight it.

Lang

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lang

There is no problem using gas on modern cars because they have all the hardened valve components to cater for modern lead-free petrol and can handle gas OK. If you are worried there are plenty of lead replacement additives which can be used in the oil or in the occasional tank of petrol if you have dual fuel. The metering bottles from Moreys and others direct into the intake are supposed to be excellent.

In older engines gas will give you the the same problems as lead free petrol so the remedies are the same(hardened valve seats or lead replacement additives)

US military tests concluded that as long as you run any engine below 3,000 rpm, valve wear will be insignificant compared to running it on petrol. It's only at higher rpm's that valve wear can become detrimental in engines without (hardened) valve seats.

H.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

US military tests concluded that as long as you run any engine below 3,000 rpm, valve wear will be insignificant compared to running it on petrol. It's only at higher rpm's that valve wear can become detrimental in engines without (hardened) valve seats.

Hanno,

This was also the conclusion when tests were done in the UK on the demise of leaded petrol and trials of lead replacement additives were conducted. I expected to be a slight rise in valve problems amongst customers vehicles, but nothing of significance has been noted over the years, and not everyone uses additives either. What should be noted, is that quite a number of wartime vehicles, both US and British, had hardened seats and specialist steels for exhaust valves, amongst them were Dodge (USA), Austin and Morris-Commercial (UK).

Back to LPG, about 28 years ago, I hired a haulier to move a vehicle and he had a Bedford TK with the 300 petrol engine, running on a normal propane cylinder as used on forklift trucks.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Lang

I think the Canadian experiments look a bit like a dog and pony show operation testing an interesting concept in the early days of development.

Things have become much more scientific and everything is now built on well founded engineering experiments and millions of hours of successful real-life operation. I think if the Canadian experiments were repeated now just using off the shelf equipment that has been developed they would have very different results.

There is no problem using gas on modern cars because they have all the hardened valve components to cater for modern lead-free petrol and can handle gas OK. If you are worried there are plenty of lead replacement additives which can be used in the oil or in the occasional tank of petrol if you have dual fuel. The metering bottles from Moreys and others direct into the intake are supposed to be excellent.

In older engines gas will give you the the same problems as lead free petrol so the remedies are the same(hardened valve seats or lead replacement additives)

There may well be many new developements that make propane more viable. Are the new systems in union with the emmisions control systems? Does the Oxygen sensor (and the host of others in the emmision system) control the fuel's injection system? Back in the day, the propane system merely replaced a carburetor, and was not tied in to the engines' computer.

One thing that has not changed in Canada though is the extreme temps we get here on the prairies. Minus 35C is -35C, and the propane will not evaporate readily at that temp, making cold starts extremely difficult. Add to that we do not have a fuel shortage in Canada, and the propane does not look so attractive.

[Lang]

Rob,

The gas systems fitted to cars definitely produce less greenhouse gas than petrol or diesel. That goes for specific built engines such as the Ford Taxis here in Australia and after market add-on kits.

The add-ons can be attached to carburettor vehicles using straight gas or dual fuel and injected vehicles using both with the same results. The mixture sensing units are very sophisticated.

I think that dual fuel systems would be the go in Canada with either manual or automatic changeover to gas during the cruise period - maybe a heater system for the gas is called for but it would probably be pretty simple to devise.

I am interested in your comments that there is no shortage of fuel in Canada. If we continue to use petrol without milking everything out of it eg LPG we are just going faster down the international slippery slope - Canada is not an island. Your comments about emissions show you care about this aspect like most of us - gas is a way to reduce them. With your pioneering experience with gas you should be a salesman for it !???

Lang

[Jon Skagfeld]

Rob, Lang et al. In 1981 I bought a brand new Chev Caprice Classic. I had installed a 77 liter propane tank in the large trunk. A brushed aluminum lockable access door for filling, and appropriate dash switches completed the ensemble.

At the time, and also during the same time to which Rob refers, efforts were made to encourage such dual conversions. Heavy subsidies for LPG meant a 0.13 per liter cost.

Yes, performance was down about 10-15%.

Yes, filling stations were far and few between.

Yes, cold weather starts were a bitch.

But if one had dual fuel, no sweat. Start on regular in the AM, run on LPG during the day, shut down on regular.

The military, bless their hearts, went total LPG for, primarily the usual inter base pedal runs and staff car routes which, through experience, had authorized regular gas refill stations located en-route.

With a lower performance profile, recovery calls started coming in because vehicles were stranded with out-of-fuel conditions. Quel surprise!

An expensive exercise indeed.

Any lessons learned, I wonder?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lang

I think that dual fuel systems would be the go in Canada with either manual or automatic changeover to gas during the cruise period - maybe a heater system for the gas is called for but it would probably be pretty simple to devise.

In Holland (and most of Western Europe) mostly dual fuel systems are used. Even today´s modern systems start the engine on petrol, and switch over to LPG unnoticably once the vaporiser has warmed up. The vaporiser is plumbed in with the car´s cooling system. This works in cold climates too, although it might take running a few kilometers instead of a few hundred meters (like here) to heat up.

The latest technology is LPG liquid injection. Instead of vaporising the LPG, it is injected in the inlet manifold in liquefied form. This allows improved control of the fuel injection, which results in improved performance and optimum combustion. Because a liquefied petroleum gas system employs the original petrol engine’s computer, all the original characteristics are retained and the emissions are less harmful to the environment.

Holland and Italy are the home to the world´s leading LPG systems manufacturers, succesfully exporting their products across the globe.

H.

[Howard]

Originally Posted by rob love

There may well be many new developements that make propane more viable. Are the new systems in union with the emmisions control systems? Does the Oxygen sensor (and the host of others in the emmision system) control the fuel's injection system? Back in the day, the propane system merely replaced a carburetor, and was not tied in to the engines' computer...

We fit two kinds of LPG system to vehicles: a)mixer, b)VSI
a) Mixer systems we simply install a mixer ring somewhere in the air intake system. It works like a carbie in that it creates a venturi and draws LPG vapor with the air on the way through. If the vehicle that this system is fitted to has an o2 sensor, we also fit a 'stepper motor' device that uses the data from the o2 sensor to vary the amount of LPG vapor delivered.
Non o2 mixer systems use about 20-25% more gas than petrol. Mixer systems with an o2 sensor are more efficient and you can expect to use 10-15% more gas than petrol.
b) VSI (Vapor Sequential Injection) systems are something else. With this system, we fit a gas injector into the inlet manifold right next to the petrol injector. This system is superior because it uses ALL of the engine management system data that the petrol system uses, eg, MAF, MAP, o2, knock, air temp, coolant temp, etc etc. Having all of this data allows the LPG ECU to trim fuel & ignition strategies to the point where power & consumption figures on LPG mirrored petrol's performance, to within 2 or 3%.
I should note that some vehicles return better figures than others, having said that I have a customer with a 1 year old Falcon XR6 (190kw?) who gets significantly BETTER economy from LPG than petrol.
Naturally, the more efficient an engine is at the start, the more efficient it will be on LPG.

[Howard]

As for head gear damage, it is a real problem. However, it is one that is not to hard to overcome. Most Aussies I'm sure will be familiar with 'Flashlube' which is an upper cylinder lubricant added to the petrol tank of pre-unleaded vehicles. Flashlube make a dispenser kit that will add around 500ml per 5000km into the intake system & help protect the headgear. We fit this on every vehicle except Falcons. I am sure there would be something equivalent available elsewhere in the world...
Some vehicles (eg Toyota Workmate Hilux 2wd, or the new Holden Rodeo) will always destroy their headgear, due to very soft metal headgear.

[Bob McNeill]

Regarding the situation in NSW and Historic rego, the RTA our govening state body says " the vehicle is to be as close to ORIGINAL as possible except for safety issues " since lpg requires an engineers ticket the vehicle has been MODIFIED so it is not eligable for Historic or Concessional rego.