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#1
04-03-04, 18:04
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GM/Ford? based armoured vehicles of the Dutch East Indies
http://members.lycos.co.uk/gceller57...gen-type-A.jpg
Hello, On the attached picture you can see a 1940 "overvalwagen" (assault vehicle) or armoured personnel carrier of the Dutch East Indies Homeguards (Stadswacht). This was in fact an armoured truck on Chevrolet 4x2 chassis. Little is known about them and they deserve more attention. To do away with them as "improvised" or "armour clad" trucks is definitely outdated. They were relatively well made and series produced. Although the overvalwagens had many deficiencies and often played roles they were not up to, they were used extensively by the Dutch, the Australian army on Timor, then by the Japanese and after that both Dutch and Indonesians during the Indonesian Independence War (1945-50). I am researching these overvalwagens and have found lots of information on how they were used. About the technical features little is known however. Common knowledge says the chassis were Chevrolet 4x2 (and since the overvalwagens were produced in 1940, I guess they were 1940 models). In the original plan to raise and arm Homeguards (Stadswacht/Urban Guards) provision was made for around 65 overvalwagens. My educated guess says that about that number were produced. The Stadswacht vehicle carried no fixed armament but the troops it carried could fire their guns and LMG's from various points while standing in the back. Chassis were provided by GM Priok while shipyards (Batavia e.g.) provided the armour cut from steel ship plating. An interesting feature of this truck in many reports was that it could not drive backwards and had to be turned in wide open spaces. As you can see the Soerakarta Stadswacht in the picture was one of the Homeguards that wore German Stahlhelm. Naturally, these Dutch and Indonesian troops were on the Allied side! http://members.lycos.co.uk/gceller57...gen-type-B.jpg There was also a more advanced type of overvalwagen (picture) commonly known as the type B or "Braat" after a metalworks in Surabaya, Eastern Java that had part in its production. The Braats were also built in the second half of 1940 but especially for the Dutch East Indies Army (KNIL) itself and are definitely the more intriguing version. They were reportedly designed by a KNIL Engineer Captain and were based on a Cab Over Engine (COE) truck chassis. Now, this is were the mystery starts: According to the many vague and fuzzy references there were Chevrolet and Ford chassis and some of the vehicles were FWD. But we do not know which ones. My theory is that the Chevrolet ones were all of the Stadswacht type (see last posting), and the Army vehicles on COE type chassis were possibly 1940 Ford/Marmon Herrington conversions or 1940 4x4 GMC COE types (these were delivered to Britain, but to Holland/NEI?). But maybe there were 4x2 vehicles as well. Then there is the question of tonnage. These vehicles were huge and with all the armour, personnel and MG's quite heavy. A 3 ton truck rating should have been the minimum required I guess... Braats came in different variants (depending on armament but basically the same vehicle):
After WW2 several Braats were converted by the Dutch Indies railroads into railway draisines that were used during the Indonesian Independence War (1945-1950). Some survive in Indonesian army museums. In the whole story about overvalwanges it’s the chassis that remains a mystery. According to the many vague and fuzzy references there were Chevrolet and Ford chassis and some of the vehicles were FWD. But we do not know which ones. My theory is that the Stadswacht type were all of the Chevrolet chassis type and the Braat/Army vehicles on COE type chassis were possibly:
Anyway, I hope someone and especially David Hayward can say something about the chassis story for which I would be extremely grateful. Any other remarks, additions, corrections, reactions, critiques are most welcome. Kind regards, Nuyt PS: the pictures stem form a Dutch defunct magazin on KNIL and were put on another internet forum by Mr George Eller 
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#2
04-03-04, 19:42
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3-tonners?
The top one looks to me similar to armoured 4 x 2 trucks in the UK and elsewhere..this photo is of the Canadian 1935 Chevrolet and Ford 3-ton chassis bodied as armoured cars.
.  I am guessing the top one as a 1940 4 x 2 Chevrolet, based on a chassis assembled by General Motors Java. The rear truck I think is a MS series 4 x 2 ...it's a 1941 Model but that front bumper is a US style and NOT Canadian MCP style. A guess again at GM Java-assembled chassis with windscreen under Defence Aid. The bottom, later truck could be a COE GM product. We know that GM Continental imported GMC COE trucks as chassis only, and GM Java would have imported similar trucks. Anyone recognise the wheels though? Oh! Nearly forgot...the armoured chassis must have been at least 3-tonners military rating, or 1.5 tonnes civilian rating Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 04-03-04 at 20:05.
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#3
04-03-04, 21:10
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http://members.lycos.co.uk/gceller57...dswacht-03.jpg
Hi David, Here's another shot of the Soerakarta Stadswacht with the overvalwagen and two MS trooper trucks. There was another version of the MS trooper where the men sat in rows behind each other. Local conversions with beautiful wooden benches... By the way, about recognising the wheels on the Braat overvalwagen type on this particular picture: Could it be a CMP chassis? I have seen another picture of an overvalwagen (Stadswacht type) that seemed to have been put on a CMP chassis. I was doubting whether this was the case on this Braat AA vehicle. But then the conversions to CMP chassis should have been done post-war, that is to say post 1945. The Dutch forces in Indonesia after 1945 had CMP's in abundance. This particular vehicle was indeed pictured during the Indonesian Indep. War and not before 1942. That would also mean that if CMP (3-ton, 30cwt?) chassis were fitted later after 1945, they should have had the same wheelbase as the original (4x2?) chassis. Would that give us a clue to the original wheelbase/chassis type of 1940? Or am I competely out of touch here? Nuyt
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#4
04-03-04, 21:20
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reverse
ho,
Forgot something: Does anybody know if "not being able to drive backwards" would give some clue to what chassis was used? Was it normal in those days if there was no reverse gear? Or maybe it was because there were no mirrors and drivers could simply not look behind them? Nuyt
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#5
05-03-04, 10:21
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Re: reverse
Quote:
 ) is a sign of your research covering unknown ground, rather than being unappealing to the audience!Quote:
Hope this helps, Hanno
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#6
05-03-04, 11:11
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thanks Hanno
Hi Hanno,
Thanks for replying. Good point about the "reverse" question. It definitely helps... I took a second look at the wheels of the Braat (after David's question) and now I am not sure about my CMP statement. I compared them to all the US truck pictures in Vanderveen and I have the impression that the front wheels were Fords or Dodges?. If you agree (and you guys can see it much better that I do) that would suggest a Ford or Ford/MH 4x4 chassis. On all pre-1942 pictures the front wheels of both types of overvalwagen have been covered with round steel armour plating, so we can not see what had happened there... Wheelbase? I guess 134 inch? The vehicles look quite short, but they were huge... Some more pics of overvalwagens on a Japanese site. http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~gijoe/sonota.htm Scroll down a bit and you will see some Braats after capture by victourious Japanese troops. Near the Braat that is stuck in a ditch one can still see the KNIL troops surrendering. Check out the wheels, the air inlet down front, the opening top hatch on the fixed turret, the Vickers aircooled MMG left to the driver. This is the army APC version. Chassis would have been:
Whose call? Nuyt
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#7
05-03-04, 11:41
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Reply
Quote:
Quote:
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#8
05-03-04, 12:02
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Puzzled still
I cannot find any evidence of any Defence Aid or Export 4 x 4 US COE Chevrolets, and therefore if there was any GM element then we are talking of GMC chassis. I will undertake further research.
May I just add that I am lapping up this new information. I found recently that the Polish Army used 1939 Model armoured Chevrolet trucks, assembled in Warsaw by Lilpop Rau & Lowenstein. Also that Afghanistan imported Chevrolet trucks and then some Fords from India. By the way this may explain the presence of a Ford Indian Pattern CMP gun tractor in Kabul...it seems that the Afghan Government ordered military vehicles from Ford and GM in Bombay. Some of the Chevrolets were taken over by the Indian Government as there was a ban on exports because of concern at German involvement north of the Khyber Pass.
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#10
05-03-04, 12:46
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Re: Puzzled still
Quote:
Quote:
The NEI Army scrambled to gear up for war after the outbreak of war in Europe, and these Overvalwagens were of a somewhat expedient nature based on what was available on short notice from local sources: truck chassis from an assembly plant, steel plating from shipyards etc. So what we need is a list of chassis types (incl. wheelbases, tyre configurations, etc.) which were being manufactured and could have been made easily available to the Netherlands East Indies during the 1939-1941 timeframe and work from there. Could I beg our resident GM/Ford/Chrysler Automotive Historian to supply us with such a list? H.
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#11
05-03-04, 12:50
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Re: Ford Indian Pattern CMP gun tractor?!?
Quote:
 H.
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#12
05-03-04, 12:53
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Will scan
After I take She Who Must Be Obeyed to the hairdresser I shall scan the US Government contracts listing for all Chevrolets and post same for inspection.
However in the meantime, here's information for you to check already made available: http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/...ruckindex.html http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/...tarychevs.html http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/...chevindex.html
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#13
05-03-04, 13:16
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Hanno, you wrote:
Quote:
Nuyt
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#14
05-03-04, 14:03
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FAT
I am sure that I saw a photo of a rear-engined Ford much modified in the open at a museum...or was I wrong? When I found the National Archives papers relating to vehicles being supplied to the Afghan Government I instantly remembered what I thought I had seen when I read about Ford sales from India in 1940.
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#15
05-03-04, 14:32
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Re: FAT
Quote:
 Source: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/ But this is not a Ford Indian Pattern CMP gun tractor, but an Armored Carrier, Wheeled, Indian Pattern, Mk IV, pictured by a Canadian soldier at an old Afghan Army facility in/near Kabul. (Also see the threads WWI Renault FT-17 tank found in Afghanistan and India Pattern Carriers.) Anyway, glad you replied quickly as I was holding my breath until you showed me pictures of a surviving Indian Pattern FAT  H.
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#16
05-03-04, 14:48
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A/C, not FAT.
If it was a rear-engined Ford chassis, this would be an Armoured Car, Indian Pattern, not a Gun Tractor.
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#17
05-03-04, 18:39
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Afghan connection
Quote:
The British Government were very concerned at the situation and tried to get the Indian Government to pressure the local GM and Ford companies to stop supplies. The GM India vehicles were supplied from the USA and paid for in NYC through the Afghan Purchasing Commission, and GM were very loathe to stop the supply of vehicles that had been paid for. Don't forget that this was pre-DA of course. The papers show that there was concern in London that the assembly depots were having capacity taken up with these Afghan orders when they should be flat-out with military orders for the Indian Government. At this juncture I should explain that so far as GM India were concerned they were a subsidiary of GM Corporation in NYC and were effectively directed that they were to import, assemble and then deliver to a foreign country hundreds of trucks which had been paid for direct and not through Bombay. On top of that the Indian Government were clamouring for the assembly of CANADIAN military vehicles supplied of course by GM of Canada. My point here is that NYC acted as a clearing house for all payments between GM subsidiaries and payments were in US$. Although Delhi may have been using every trick to pressure GM India, on the ground they reported to NYC and I am sure that there was no question as to which contracts were given priority! In the end the papers show that the British purchased Afghan order trucks from GM Bombay and promised the Aghan Government to pay money in lieu or provide vehicles in lieu in due course. I am taking a degree of licence here and saying that Ford took even more of a hard line, especially as Ford of Canada was a) a partially owned subsidiary of Ford US, and b) was the parent of Ford India. My submission is that because of the concern at German involvement* in Afghanistan the British were very concerned at the use to which these Indian-assembled vehicles was to be put. When the involvement subsided, British concerns faded and British-Afghan relations relaxed so that GM and Ford in Bombay were allowed with British sanction to supply military vehicles on lieu of those seized in 1941 that had been paid for of course, and that this included CMP-based vehicles. It would be interesting to see whether supply of ex-Indian vehicles continued post-war. * I understand that the Abwehr had at least two offices in Kabul, though I would imagine that after Operation Barabarossa and the invasion of the Soviet Union, pressure from Moscow would have resulted in German agents being removed. Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 05-03-04 at 18:45.
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#18
05-03-04, 19:14
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Connection
I have just thought that all this discussion about Aghan orders fits in with GM sales of miliatry vehicles to:
a) Belgium and Netherlands through GM Coninental, Antwerp and Rotterdam b) France through GM France, Gennevilliers c) Norway through GM International, Copenhagen [prize seizures by British 1940] and possibly Sweden d) NEI through GM Java e) Malay States through GM Java f) Egypt through GM near East, Alexandria g) Switzerland through GM Suisse, Biel/Bienne h) Poland through Lilpop, Rau und Lowesnten, Warsaw i) Afghanistan through GM India, Bombay j) Burma & China through Rangoon and then I found out some more information that I had no idea about until I had an e mail from Yugoslavia out of the blue: 'In 1939/40 the Yugoslavian Kingdom Army bought 400 Chevrolet, 1 1/2-ton trucks, with long wheelbase, double wheels at rear, straight 6 cylinder OHV, carburetor motor, 85 b.h.p. [216 cu. in.]. To minimize expenses these trucks were sent disassembled in two ships that sailed from New York City with main components and assembly was made in Kragujevac in the V.T.Z. (‘Vojno-tehnicki Zavod’ or “Military-technical Institute”) 120 km. south of Beograd/Belgrade in Serbia. Later, after WW II, this factory was renamed to ‘Crvena Zastava’, then to ‘Zavodi Crvena Zastava’ although it is now ‘Zastava-Automobili Zastava-Kamioni’ About 20 of these trucks were sent totally disassembled for personnel (Mechanic and Driver) training purposes. Sorry, no photos of this assembling - that was an Army secret, and all the Chevrolets were destroyed/disappeared during the War. Note the brochure for the 1939-40 trucks was in German, which is rather ironical, and could have been produced by G.M. Suisse S.A. ‘Montage of Chevrolet Trucks in Kragujevac, 1940-1941’. According to our Investigations and to available documentation from the Army- and Navy Ministerium of Kingdom Jugoslavia ordered Jugoslavia in the year 1940 a 1000 units of Chevrolet Trucks 3 Ton, Petrol motor, made by General Motors Company, complete with Body, Canvas-roof and removable seats, for military use, at the price of US$1.465,40 per unit with 10% Value in Spare Parts. The vehicles were transported in cargo of 250 units by the ships S.S. Serafim Topic and S.S. Joanis P. Gulandris from New York to Port Split in S.K.D. (Semi-knocked down) status – and so were partly dissembled for maritime transport. Assembly of vehicles and repares of transportation damages was made at the end of 1940 and beginning of 1941 in the Army-technical Factory in Kragujevac (‘Vojno-tehnicki Zavodi’ in Kragujevac, Central Serbia, circa 150 Km from Belgrade). At the same time they tried to produce also spare parts for these vehicles – i.e. the heavy foundry parts such as the motor/cylinder block and machined parts such as ring gears and driving pinions for differentials (Gleason gear). In the activities of the factory this was noted as ‘Montage of Chevrolet vehicles’. This Factory had had experience and a tradition in servicing vehicles from 1903 and in 1953 they had also assembled "Willys" Jeeps and from 1954, under new name: ‘Zavodi Crvena Zastava’ they produced under License a range of FIAT cars, light trucks and off-road army vehicles. Today they produce small cars the YUGO (1,100 and 1,300 c.c.), FLORIDA (1,600 c.c.) and Light Trucks. Miroslav Milutinovic, Member of Society of motoring Historians' This illustrates that where possible locally-available components were used, and this seems to suggest that this may also have been the case in the NEI. There were of course also Ford contracts and from memory trucks were supplied through Ford in Egypt, Romania, Hungary, India, et al. From June 1940 GM had established offices in NYC, Detroit and Washington that dealt with the conversion of civilian assembly plants to US Government contracts. Of course that also meant that Chevrolet assembly plants in Flint, Michigan and Tarrytown, NY and possibly Bloomfield, NJ Boxing Plant, were geared-up for military vehicle sales through the offices. All for US$ as cash sales and then with Defence Aid and then Lend-Lease GM contracted with the US Government instead, and the USG dealt with foreign governments. What may be appreciated is that NYC also appear to have handled pre-DA, DA and then L-L sales to Canada, and also orders for Canadian vehicles. Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 05-03-04 at 19:21.
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#19
10-03-04, 15:45
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overvalwagen stadswacht type
http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/tanks...merc/krupp.htm
Hello, On the attached picture you can see a stadswacht overvalwagen, mistakenly called a Krupp APC on a Swedish site. There are some references that these trucks were based on Krupp chassis. This misunderstanding probably arose from the fact that two Wilton-Feijenoord armoured cars were briefly in service in the NEI in the early thirties. These were based on German chassis and were an inspiration for a German design called Krupp Gepanzerte Radfahrzeug (a 6x4 vehicle). Kind regards, Nuyt
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#20
14-03-04, 18:18
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braat's on ford/marmon herrington chassis?
Hanno, David,
I know most references to the Braat overvalwagen chassis mention Chevrolets, but to check another possibility: here is one: KNIL placed a huge order at Marmon Herrington in 1940 I believe, comprising tanks and tractors (by the way if someone has a copy or a list of stuff ordered I would appreciate a copy very much). The tractors were mostly delivered and show up in the US mission report of August 1941: KNIL had on hand around 365 light tractors, intended for hauling AA and AT guns. According to the report they were TBS 30 type: no idea what they looked like). The guns however never arrived, so these tractors were probably used by the tank training battalions awaiting real tanks. Possibly they are visible on this well known picture (they are certainly no Vickers Utility tractors): http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/hol/Parade.jpg Anyway, also on the US mission list there is a reference to 45 medium tractors Ford/MH, intended for hauling field guns and bridging equipment. Now I was initially thinking about tracked tractors, but of course these could have been wheeled ones just as well. What vehicle could this have been? I have never seen so far any other arty tractor or pioneer vehicle besides the Maple Leafs and Caterpillars. The field guns that KNIL tried to order after 1940 never arrived, so the tractors might have been given a different use. Also I have never so far seen a KNIL COE truck in another role than overvalwagen. Independently, after going through all the references I have collected of Braats, I have come to the conclusion that a total number built of 45 might come closer to the truth that 60-65. Might these have been Ford CEO converted by MH to fwd? Vanderveen pp 347: Ford 09W/MH MM5COE for instance, used in a wide variety of functions? Comments? please! Nuyt
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#21
14-03-04, 20:42
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pre-war Dutch armoured car designs
Hello,
The overvalwagens were probably designed at the Artillerie Inrichtingen (KNIL Art. Workshop) in Bandung, Java. That was no coincidence as the Artillerie Inrichtingen in Holland had designed several armoured cars in the interwar period. They used GMC chassis in the late twenties and Morris chassis in 1935. The cars were 4x2 and used mainly for internal security purposes (for instance during the Jordaan-revolt in Amsterdam). Here's some pics from a well-known source on the internet: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/hol/Morris.jpg http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/hol/GMC.jpg Kind regards, Nuyt
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#22
14-03-04, 21:42
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Re: braat's on ford/marmon herrington chassis?
Quote:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marmon...iles/NEI_docs/ Quote:
Quote:
Hanno
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#23
15-03-04, 11:38
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Marmon-Herrington tracked tractor
Quote:
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#24
15-03-04, 13:22
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Re: Marmon-Herrington tracked tractor
I believe this publicity picture shows one of the Marmon-Herrington tracked tractor types supplied to the KNIL. Note the steel dry pin tracks as opposed to the continuous rubber band tracks, and the foldable gun crew seats on the sides similar to those fitted on the Vickers Utility tractors.
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#25
15-03-04, 13:32
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Nice website pix
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#27
15-03-04, 15:02
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Re: braat's on ford/marmon herrington chassis?
Quote:
As for COE Fords, attached goes a picture of the JJSCOE-4 Ford/Marmon-Herrington 1½-ton COE truck with 134" wheelbase. From 1941 onwards the depicted COE model came in 101, 134 and 158" wheelbase. Even though the KNIL ordered hundreds of Ford/Marmon-Herrington trucks, I cannot find references to COE trucks/chassis being delivered. I believe the Overvalwagens were all based on CKD*) Chevrolet chassis assembled at General Motor's plant in Tandjong Priok, NEI. As far as I know Ford did not have such facilities in NEI, so they could not deliver at the rate GM could. Hanno *) CKD: 'completely knocked down' - restricted to destinations where the manufacturers had proper assembly plants. CKD entailed the supply of parts which could not - or not economically - be produced locally, supplemented by parts which could.
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#28
15-03-04, 15:43
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Chevrolet equivalent
If there were any imported this is the 1941 - 1942 Chevrolet Model NN COE Stake bodied 4 x 4 [although all were supposedly 1942 Models].
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#29
15-03-04, 16:40
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Thanks gentlemen,
I think wheelbase of the COE chassis was around 134 inch: the Ford/MH is about right, the Chevy is too long I think. The overvalwagens were quite short. The first series of BRaat's were produced in the second half of 1940 and a squadron of 12 were driven around Java in jan 41 for propaganda purposes. That would limit the chassis used for the first series to 1940 COE models, wheelbase 134 inch, Chevrolet 4x2 being the most likely. Numbers delivered must have been minimal: like I said, I have never seen any normally built up COE truck in KNIL service, like GS or other.... Now, later series might have used other chassis as word is production was continuous from 1940-1942. HTH I am sorry David, if sometimes I dont react immediately: I am at my work, so have to attend to other duties mainly...PLease understand. Nuyt
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#30
15-03-04, 16:51
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Quote:
As for survivors, see 3e Bataljon- 5e Regiment Infanterie > Carrierpeloton 1 for a picture of one of these tractors in use with the Dutch after WW2. 
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Linear Mode
