18 Pdr Limber ( Aust )

[Graeme Stephens]

Greetings from Perth, West Aust. - I have come back to an 'old' restoration of mine, with the hope of adding some of the 'missing' items.
Hopefully the International Brains Trust can guide me, briefly the Aust Army at the start of ww2 had 2 types of 'pneumatised' 18pdr Limbers, ones with the Firing Platform frame on top / and ones without.
The pic'd Limber is framed.
From what I've seen on wrecks over the years the framed limber had Tools mounted on the old Foot Boards, while the frameless Limbers retained the Rifle mounts at the front having easier access - but field mods are common ?
My first question - on top at the rear is a bracket array, which I'm guessing holds 4 Aiming ( folding? ) Posts, I have a spare 3" Mortar post but it is too short. !8 Pdr aiming posts in manuals are mentioned but I have not seen one.
Question 2 - I'd like to make leather pouches for the Fuse Setting Key No 17,18,19? they were mounted on each side, does any one have dimensions of the Key. .................. there's a start ....... cheers

[m606paz]

Beautiful!

[Graeme Stephens]

For demonstration purposes I’m fortunate to have a 25 Pdr Firing Platform to show how the 18 Pdr Platform would have appeared, I assume there were slight differences between the 25 Pdr and the 18 & 4.5” Platforms?
My 18 Pdr shells range from a Mk1 1905, thru ww1, 1920’s, 30’s. to 1942. ( I’m not a shell collector )
Question 3 – added ( 1939 ) to the rear door are two, once leather bound brackets, ~ 34 “ apart and supported something 2 “ wide …. Maybe a Range Scale ?
You might see that I have removed the 3 rivets which once held the rear door Key Pouch, I’m having a go at wet leather molding, ………. cheers

[Graeme Stephens]

For your viewing is my *ww2,18 Pdr. Limber without Firing Platform frame.
Easier access to the Rifles, and no tools in storage.
The Army blanket on top is to show the Public where the 3 ww1 Gunners once sat.
Two Drag ropes on top connect to the Slip rings on the Wheel Hubs.
In ww1 there was another rope on top - the 66’ long Tethering Rope – for the Horses
Question - this Limber was made by ‘ Metro ‘, who were they?
Part of the original ww1 Arm Rest was used to support the ww2 Mudguards.

[Lynn Eades]

I cant help with any of your questions, but to say the "L" on the plates stands for "Land" as opposed to "A" ( Admiralty) (in case you don't already know)
Very nice Limbers. Thanks for posting.

[Mike Cecil]

Metro = Metropolitan Amalgamated Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd, later became Metro-Cammell.

BRC&W = Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon Company.

The 18-pdr was issued with two aiming posts which were normally carried on the front of the shield on the carriage, not on the ammunition limber.

Aiming Posts, as far as I can ascertain, were 4 feet long with alternating 1.5 inch bands of white and black.The head was any one of: a rectangle, a diamond or a round.

The Australian Army converted only the Ammunition Wagons to pneumatic tyres and wheels for towing by a mechanised tractor, to become the ammunition limber of the 18-pdrs converted to pneumatic tyres and wheels. Horse-drawn ammunition limbers were unsuitable as they were fitted with a timber perch pole and had a different under-structure to support the ammunition box.

Live ammunition carried in the limber and wagon was always fitted with cartridge clips, a brass, four-armed clip with a woven canvas loop for extracting the cartridge from the rattan & leather basket. One arm was painted red and shaped so the clip could be easily unclipped from the base of the cartridge by hand.

The Fuze Indicator was 34.5 inches in overall length and was carried in a leather or canvas and leather cover. It was operated by the No.6 gun number when in action.

Lynn is right about the 'L' - it stands for Land Service.

Mike

[Mike K]

Some relevant scenes: Were the 18 pdr guns in this film supplied by the British in the M.E
or brought over from Australia ? Some of the trucks this Australian unit were using in Palestine are definitely British and were not shipped from Aust. i.e. Morris-Commercial.

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1068756

[Graeme Stephens]

Thanks Mariano, Lynn, Mike & Mike, I'll follow up the ' ~ Fuse Range Scale ' at near 34" surely it fits on the back door plate, ... just need a pic of one ?
the two Limbers went on display this weekend ( 99% ? ) finished.

[Graeme Stephens]

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1068756
an excellent film , lots of 18pdr gun and limber views, plus. Including at 01:05:00 'No.6' holding a " Fuze Indicator " - maybe. There is also a mention of Bob Sharman, my bad memory says I once met the Gent.

[Mike Cecil]

Excellent film footage, Mike. 18-pdr Mk.4P(LP) and 4.5-inch Howitzers. These are all Australian-owned guns converted to pneumatic wheels/tyres in Australia. All explained with plenty of images in the first two chapters of my book 'Fire! The 25-pdr in Australian Service' available from Trackpad Publishing.

Mike

[Graeme Stephens]

The Brake Cable actuates/pulls from the Truck (not yet), the cable runs to a wonderful Aussie cantilever, which at the top pulls a rod which is connected to a lever on a cross shaft that then rotates to both Brake back plates actioning thru cams to the Brake shoes.
If there is another connected unit, the through running cable at the bottom of the Cantilever then engages the second unit, to cause the same Braking - when there are no further towing units the Through running cable is parked on a hook at the rear of the mudguard.
A grease nipple is provided on the flex to help overcome friction.

it was even harder to understand when it was found as wreckage

[Graeme Stephens]

For my 18Pdr Limbers I’m happy to run 7.50 x 20 “ tyres, wrecks I’ve found seem to have used 8.25 x 20 ‘s. ….. The canvas covered steel mesh mudguards have been repaired and recovered.
And by the cast logo on the Hubs, Spyder and Brake drums, I’m assuming they were made by Sunshine Harvester in Sunshine, Victoria. The logo is similar to International Harvester.
Casting dates I’ve found are for 1939 & 1940.
The last pics show where the original Cartwheel Axle ran – with the new smaller diameter Tyre, the new axle had to be lowered – to raise the Limber body.
I have yet to find any technical records of the Pneumatization Program carried out on the 18pdr & 4.5 “ systems.
Hope you like my story - Gram

[Graeme Stephens]

Strange thing happened ( for me ) while I was setting up my 2 Limbers at a show, - I was applying a ‘ Please don’t touch’ sign using a magnet = and it fell off.
My Metro made 18Pdr 1918 Wagon/Limber - the rear door and 3 sides are non-magnetic, all other frame works are magnetic, top, floor, ect.
The BRC & W Wagon/limber is ‘all’ magnetic.
My Metro made 4.5 inch Wagon / limbers also have non-magnetic doors and sides.
I shall endeavour to take off a ‘door’ from one of my 4.5 Limbers to identify the rusty metal?
Unless someone has already encountered this.
The other Manufacturer I have seen is E.O.C. - ?

[tankbarrell]

EOC is likely Elswick Ordnance Co.

[Graeme Stephens]

I always like to present some military history to the general public for their curiosity/education and for my self-pride – if they show any appreciation.
A two or three day display, accommodates any visitor who asks ‘would you like to have …… , I’ll bring it in tomorrow’, and they on occasion do.
Family members are wanting to find an appropriate place for items to end up.
At my last display a guy remarked that his Grand-dad was in Artillery, and in his old shed were Black & White sticks, which were once used to play Croquet.
I showed a lot of interest, and the next day, 2 black/white Aiming Posts and 2 ‘was’ red/white posts were gratefully received.
I’ve kept the Black/white posts in mostly original condition, the others needed blasting and repainting.
And they fit !

[Graeme Stephens]

Many years ago, I was lucky to find an original (?) Limber key, equally as luck runs, we have in this State a Master military restorer/craftsman – Wayne Henderson, who made casts of the key in bronze.
Now I have time to learn leather craft and wet moulding, saddle stitching, and trial & error.
Having the 3 rivet holes gives the pouch limits, my first attempt wasn’t bulky enough to allow for the string/ lanyard – apparently in the first winter action in 1914 the keys to gain access to the ammo were dropped in the mud, resulting in a white string being attached to ‘all’ tools.
Images of the Limber pouches are vague, and with this Mk3 attempt I’m quite satisfied.

[Mike K]

Brisbane

https://digital.slq.qld.gov.au/deliv...s_pid=FL341151

[Graeme Stephens]

Thanks Mike - great photo, I see the canvas mudguards are having a hard time , and there are the 18 Pdr firing platforms, the gaping modified hole in the rear door for the tow hook - it's not nice.

[Graeme Stephens]

The 1913 Handbook placed the Fuze Indicators as one behind the Gun Shield, and another on top and to the rear of the Ammunition Wagon.
It appears that the Indicator had a transformation near the beginning of ww1, from a large ‘Clock’ to a ‘Slide Rule’, which became Indicator Mk11 …. this made all the original Indicators – Mk1’s.#
This had me wondering when in time were the obvious ( Mk 11? ) ‘Indicator’ brackets placed on the Wagon’s upper rear door,- and ‘found’ in the Amendments 1914/15 the instructions for the locations for the Mk11 Indicator, - behind and top right of the Gun Shield ( as the Carragh Camp Museum Gun - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mQ5oGqYHco&t=544s ), ), and at the rear of the Ammunition Wagon.
So mid/late ww1 production Wagons had the Brackets installed…….

[Mike K]

Did you see this

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...7&d=1671514613

[Graeme Stephens]

again another great info pic. thanks Mike. I like the 'Red arrow' - Gun TAC? sign 05?. ...... the 'Green arrow' shows my next re-riveting venture .... the 'White' setting key pouch project, making a mold, and finding a 17,18 or 19 Key haha ,
and there !! - ' Yellow arrow'. the thingy leather strap hidden behind the top plate.
Just noticed the Truck ? brake cable still hooked up near the number plate .... the trailer brakes aren't connected ?

[Mike Cecil]

D5 = the sub-unit tactical sign for the particular gun.

[Mike K]

https://territorystories.nt.gov.au/10070/626836

https://rosetta.slv.vic.gov.au/deliv...pid=FL15894105

https://rosetta.slv.vic.gov.au/deliv...pid=FL15986713

[Graeme Stephens]

I can see my original Mk11 Indicator being stored in ….. not a beautiful ww1 Leather Case, like at Carragh – but in an Aussie ww2 Canvas one, even though the latest pic of the Gun Crew show the Aussies didn’t bother about caring for the instrument.
So until further notice here is my Indicator, in storage. Leather strap and buckles to follow, I prefer the buckle under but the pics show buckle coming from top….. some poetic license here

[Graeme Stephens]

Inspired by M Kelly's pic - see the Yellow Arrow, an easy fix up with original rivet holes to go by ... and after scrounging through my old junk - a strap, easy, the replacement strap has allowed for some 105 years of sun damage , it being behind the top door flap, not as bad as what the key pouch copped.
The new strap will be wet molded back on itself.

[Graeme Stephens]

what a mongrel job trying to rivet in such confined space. After some investigation, trial and error, and wasting and ruining plenty of copper rivets, found that having the buckle end at the top of the mounting bracket gave a better purchase.
The old rivets on the two limbers varied 3/8 and 1/2 inch.

[Graeme Stephens]

so, with buckle at the top , tongue strap under, rivets as ww1 (see broken G clamp), backing leather, this is what 'Their' getting on display at the local Annual Arms & Armour 9/10 Sept 2023.