CMP shipping methods

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's an example of CKD kits, which are made up of parts and components which have not been assembled before. A CKD kit comprised the necessary numbers of subassemblies and parts for a given quantity of chassis which would be assembled in much the same way as it was done in the Canadian factory using locally produced parts as much as possible.

Interesting to see these Cab 11 or 12 cowls in Light Stone, while the seats are painted Khaki. In the background is a case holding "body & chassis"

"Original Toronto Star caption: Tools For Britain are rolling out in ever-increasing numbers from Canada's factories; and 24 United States newspapermen saw them roll yesterday at General Motors Oshawa Plant. Here some of them see the cab of an army truck; being readied for shipment."

Source: https://digitalarchive.tpl.ca/object...easing-numbers

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

We should get this right once and for all.

CKD, Completely Knocked Down, is an really a different manufacturing system, rather than a different type of crating for shipment.

One type of manufacturing is to source all the parts required to assemble a certain type of vehicle, and assemble them into a working vehicle at an assembly plant in country A, test it, after which it is scrutinised and accepted by a goverment official. After full assembly, it can be partly dismantled and crated to be shipped to it's destination in country B. The crating can be done at the assembly plant, or at a depot type of facility where vehicles are prepared for shipment.

Some types of vehicle can be easily (partly) dismantled and will be crated, others (like tanks) are sealed for weather influences. SKD , SUP, TUP etc. are all methods of packing complete vehicles into crates for shipping. At the destination nothing more than labour and tools are needed to uncrate the vehicle and re-attach the bits that have been removed to decrease it´s volume for efficient shipping.

Now, Completely Knocked Down means sourcing some parts required to assemble a certain type of vehicle in country A, crate these parts, and ship them to an assembly plant in country B where the shipped parts are uncrated and locally sourced parts are feeded to the assembly line after which a complete, running vehicle will emerge for the first time.

In the case of e.g. the Indian deliveries, Ford and Chevrolet both had local assembly plants or contractors, so they only had to send over chassis, engines, gearboxes, axles, cowl parts, etc. The local assembly plant(s) sourced bodywork, tyres, cab parts etc. to complete the vehicle.

I hope this sets the record straight.

I´ll get off my soapbox now

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Cross posted from http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...1631#post61631:

Originally Posted by David_Hayward (RIP)

We then have:
"SUP" or SINGLE UNIT PACKS
"PKD" or PARTLY KOCKED DOWN
"TUP" or TWIN UNIT PACKS
"FBU" or Fully Built-Up which was possibly crated, usually not so, complete vehicles shipped in the hold say.

A Cab 11 or 12 CMP in a Single Unit Pack.


Source: Archives Motorisées / Motorized Archives (Canada) - https://www.facebook.com/groups/308616946015666

[Grant Bowker]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Interesting to see these Cab 11 or 12 cowls in Light Stone, while the seats are painted Khaki.

I'd say Cab 12. My first indicator was the valves for the footwell vents. Then I saw the hinges for the opening hood of the Cab 12.
The cases in the background say Chevrolet and the features of the cabs do seem to match Chevrolet (but I haven't checked enough details to be 100% that they can't be Fords).

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

I'd say Cab 12. My first indicator was the valves for the footwell vents. Then I saw the hinges for the opening hood of the Cab 12.
The cases in the background say Chevrolet and the features of the cabs do seem to match Chevrolet (but I haven't checked enough details to be 100% that they can't be Fords).

I agree..Chev Cab12's. Excellent picture

A Cab 11 or 12 CMP in a Single Unit Pack.

Early Ford F15 or F15A cab11 is my best guess. You can see the small radiator cap, Ford dash, and absence of door hooks and knobs for the cab vents.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I agree..Chev Cab12's. Excellent picture



Early Ford F15 or F15A cab11 is my best guess. You can see the small radiator cap, Ford dash, and absence of door hooks and knobs for the cab vents.

Let me be a dissenting voice. I say Ford 11 cab. The instrument cluster and switches look Ford and you can see a rad cap on the cowl that wouldn't be there on a 12 cab.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Does anyone know where I can find a CMP in a box? There must be some stashed away somewhere.

(And 1st of Apr sometimes comes early.)

[Ed Storey]

I think the photograph needs to be flipped to get the instrument cluster on the correct right side.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Part of me looks at those 8 and 10 inch wide softwood boards and groans. Those trees were cut down a long time ago, and you just don't find that cut of lumber anymore.

[Grant Bowker]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I think the photograph needs to be flipped to get the instrument cluster on the correct right side.
Attachment 131950

Good morning Ed,
Are you sure the photo needs to be flipped? Doing so creates an unusual left hand drive CMP (steering column location as well as the packing location of the steering wheel)....

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

Good morning Ed,
Are you sure the photo needs to be flipped? Doing so creates an unusual left hand drive CMP (steering column location as well as the packing location of the steering wheel)....

Yeah, looking closer, I agree with you.

[Mike Cecil]

I've got a reference somewhere to CMP chassis arriving in Australia in packs/stacks of five. These would be bare chassis. I assume other components not supplied in Aust arrived in similar packs/stacks.

Mike

[Mike Cecil]

I have a document titled 'Boxing - Australia' dated 15 August 1941, for the supply of C018QF 158 inch WB 3 ton 4x4 trucks with full cab. It lists the packing method for 24 complete vehicles (less rear bodywork and spare wheel assembly) broken down by box contents, number of boxes of each size, box sizes and weights for each box type. Total shipping volume is 5,888.6 cubic feet, total weight is 179,620 lbs.

For example:

Frames (chassis) were boxed 6 per box, in 4 boxes = 24.

Engines were three per box, 8 boxes total = 24.

Wheels and tyres (96 total) are listed as 'loose' and not boxed.

Mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Found this somewhere a while ago - would anyone know where it came from and does anybody have a better scan?

"Default Three basic methods of packing trucks for overseas shipments: SUP, TUP and CKD"

[Colin Alford]

Hanno,

I attempted to find some period Canadian definitions for the various packing methods, but I have not been successful so far.

In the absence of formal definitions of the packing methods, I did find some early documents that may be of interest.

It seems the initial shipments of CMPs were a combination of S.K.D. and Complete - Unboxed. These were followed by C.K.D shipments, followed by an urgent request to revert to S.K.D.

The following images are from microfilm C-5142, images 429, 430, 456, and 457, and 238 : https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...reel_c5142/429

[Colin Alford]

The initial instructions for shipping marks, and destinations can be found here: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...reel_c5142/459

[m606paz]

Crated Trucks

[m606paz]

More pics. Seems to be Ford Plant

[m606paz]

Ready for shipping

[m606paz]

More pics. Sorry the lack of description...

[m606paz]

Is that all for this day!
Tomorrow more pics!

[m606paz]

Ford logo V8 painting CW V dot dot dot dash!

[Tony Smith]

"...-" in Morse Code is "V". So just a stylised design for a logo, or is it meant to mean something?

Ford were always proud of their V8 engines and took every opportunity to boast.

[Tony Smith]

Of other interest, how were those large stacks of crates managed?

They don't appear to have underneath slots for forklifts and of course, they don't have the locking holes on each corner of the modern sea container.

Stacked by crane and ropes?

[Mike Cecil]

dit dit dit dah (...-) was a well used 'phrase' of the Morse V that stood for V for Victory. Nice compilation of its widespread use here:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/where...tory-come-from


Looks like Ford took the opportunity to link the popular V for Victory with the Ford V8 by adding the '8'.


Mike

[Bob Carriere]

Trying to understand the building sequence for the GM C15 and C15a sometimes in 1940 and our various serial numbers.

David Hayward I believe had indicated, if memory serves me right, that the actual production started in the last few days of March 1940 but were all stamped as April 40.......

So according to the first shipment documents posted by Colin the first load that was in process of being built and move dfwon to Halifax to catch the boat was may 27th 1940.

He had also indicated that the first off the line were C8 and C15 in the 4x2 version and that the C15a had started later possibly early Fall 1940.......

Not sure how the serial numbers were allocated..... one sequencial list of numbers for all CMPs or by individual size such as a block of numbersfor C8 and a separate block of numbers for C15 and one for the C15a....and so on.

With the recent surfacing of very early C15 in the X000, 3 digits, out West and some other in the 11xx and mine in the 3851, can't remember the serial number for Alex de W. ..........are we any closer to determining a better approx. date of manufactoring for the 4x4 series....... for example my 3851 had the front air vents, no hot weather hooks on the dash, no web stops limiters on the doors, no rubber marker lights on the front fenders but still relying on the small bulb inside the head light box, no water expansion tank on the fender and no convoy light on the frame for the rear axle..... typically an early model that was kept in Canada for local use and training purposes...... soon to be designated obsolete.....

Are there later shipping documents for late Summer shipments or nay records kept for those shipments that never made it across the big Pond???

In fact, was Ford using a dedicated series for their vehicles...... and having seen assembly lines which showed a mix of civilian and CMP models being put together did they use different serial ## which begs to be asked when were the serial numbers assigned to a vehicle..... when the vehicle was scheduled for the assembly line or after it left the line running....easily done today with computers but back then would have been a paper mess with multi carbon copies.!!!!

Comment!!!!!!!

[Colin Alford]

Bob,

Here are documents which detail the original production forecast from 08 Feb 40, and the initial shipping plan from 15 Feb 40. I haven’t found any documents which detail if there were changes to the initial plan.(images from microfilm C-5142, images 444 and 486 https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...reel_c5142/444


The 27 May date mentioned above, was after the “First flight” SKD shipments had arrived in the UK, and after the subsequent CKD shipments started arriving in the UK, and they experienced increased challenges with the assembly ( and missing parts) of the CKD shipments, and the staff in the UK requested a reversion to SKD packaging.

I haven’t found any documents which detail the start of F15A/C15A production.

Regarding Ford serial numbers: initially Ford CMPs did not have ID plates, and they only used the engine number to identify the vehicle. Later production received serial numbers and ID plates.

Regarding Chev serial numbers: Attached are images from the C15, and C30 parts lists. With the noted serial numbers for new parts being the same between vehicle types, I am inclined to think that the 5 digit serial number was cumulative throughout the year regardless of vehicle type (preceding 5 digits being year and model number). (Interesting side note: the serial numbers seem to indicate production of 11 cab, then 12 cab in 1940, a reversion to 11 cab at the beginning of 1941, then the complete switch to 12 cab after vehicle 5003 in 1941. This might only indicate some pilot model 12 cabs in late 1940)

[Colin Alford]

Hanno,

While above it is mentioned that TUP was a shipping method for CMPs, I have not yet found any period Canadian documents that use that term.

So far, I have only encountered “Complete unboxed” (for a few pilot models), SKD (or S.K.D. depending on the document), CKD, SUP, MUP and MUP Special.

Here are some images from the C60X assembly instructions which give a definition for MUP.

[Colin Alford]

In June/July 2021, Mariano shared some scans of Ford Assembly instructions for various vehicles.

Here are a couple images of the cover pages for CMPs to show SUP and MUP Special.

[David Dunlop]

Tony.

I notice wood slats located across the ends of the crates and one or two more in the middle, probably depending on the overall weight of the crate. That would allow for a pair of ropes to be fed through to sling the crates with a crane.

I can recall years ago seeing an old black and white news film of dock workers feeding ropes between wooden crates that size and being amazed at how quickly they could do it, but cannot remember exactly how they did it.


David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

"...-" in Morse Code is "V". So just a stylised design for a logo, or is it meant to mean something?

Ford were always proud of their V8 engines and took every opportunity to boast.

"V for Victory" no doubt - see https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/where...tory-come-from