Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

You're probably right, however on Canadian production CMPs almost all 1942 vehicles (based on scraping down to original paint) were khaki and 1943 were brown, then OD early 1944 as you say. This might be the manufacturers not catching up with (or caring about) the regs?

One running board on my February 1944 HUW is OD, the other OD over brown which you can only see when it's taken apart. The parts supply ran on a different schedule than the regs too it appears.

Bruce,
The British army's Army Council Instructions 1160 30/5/42 declared the SCC No.2 Brown be used on A, B and RASC vehicles or KG3 until present stocks are exhausted. Further on it states 'in future SCC No.2 will be considered the general purpose Basic Paint. Existing stocks of Khaki Green No.3 will be exhausted.'
The Canadian army backed this instruction up with one of their own Divisional Orders, dated 6/7/42

[Lynn Eades]

Richard, A full description of ACI 1160 might add clarity. (this post is not it either)
It states that SCC refers to the colour, and not the type of paint used.

Gina, I have the ACIs for 1940, 41, and 42.

The appendix talks about: (under the title of)
Basic paint:
For Bodies. Wood and metal
Cat No. HA 5715 paint p.f.u. Brown S.C.C.No.2 special spraying C.S.1733)
Or.
Cat No.HA 5638 (or HA 5147) paint p.f.u. Spray Khaki Green No.3 (C.S. 1429) until present stocks exhausted.
Then,
For canvas covers and hoods
Cat. No.HA 6194 Paint Bituminous Emulsion S.C.C. No.2 (T.S.143)
And then,
Cat. No.HA 6145 Paint Bituminous Emulsion Khaki Green No.3 (C.S. 1442)
until present stocks are exhausted.
The first half of the above relates to "A" "B" and RASC Vehicles, the second half to artillery and search light equipment.
Then for steel Helmets:
Cat. No. HA 5861 Paint dark brown textured matt finish (C.S. 1736)
Then for tentage:
Paint Bituminous Emulsion Cat. No. HA 6193 S.C.C. No.1,
Or:
HA 6179-S.C.C. No7
And lastly for Bridging equipment is states:
Special waterproof and anti gas paints will be used as directed in the hand book on maintenance of these equipments in S.C.C. No. 2.

Then there is a column Of "Dark Patterning" for the "A", "B", RASC, Arty, and searchlight equip, with three options.

Then Under the notes column, (for the above vehs. and equip) it states:
Cat. No.HA 6184 Paint Bituminous Emulsion S.C.C. No. 14 (T.S.143) may be used if the preferred options are unobtainable.
There is lots here that means little to me. Given time I can photograph and post if required.
There is a general note that in future S.C.C. No. 2 will be considered the general purpose paint. Existing stocks of K.G. No. 3 will be exhausted.
S.C.C. No. 1A will be the paint of dark patterning and existing stocks of Dark Tarmac No. 4 will be exhausted..

Does anyone one have an index for the Army Council Instructions (A.C.Is)?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Richard, A full description of ACI 1160 might add clarity. (this post is not it either)
It states that SCC refers to the colour, and not the type of paint used.

Lynn,
There was no point in me posting anymore than I did, for one thing it would be hijacking the thread and going off the subject of Australian spec paint colours. The point of my post was to correct Chris on his comments regarding British KG3 and why the SCC No.2 Brown was introduced. The chromium oxide related to producing the green in the KG3 paint and as it was desperately needed elsewhere, the Brown was used to replace it, KG3 was still used until the stocks were exhausted, so despite Army Council Instructions on camouflage colours changing, there was still vehicles and equipment in service in several different schemes.
Nothing else to say, case closed.
Back to the Australian paint colours

cheers Richard

[Lynn Eades]

Richard, That's fine. I posted because :
1. The ACIs are probably not that common.
2. Gina may not have had access to them.
3. Because the British paint standards would have had an influence on
Australian Paint considerations.
4. Because much of it is gibberish to me and although I have little
understanding, it seemed the you had over simplified the information in
ACI 1160.
5. How these Army Council Instructions affected the Australian Military I
don't know, but these instructions were certainly not anecdotal. They were
the the law as far as the British Army went. Orders are orders, and
contrary to what some might suggest, Commanders did not ignore orders
by a whim.
6. Knowing the basics of how the British paint system worked would help the
overall understanding, for not just me but many others that say nothing.
here.
E.g what does a Cat. No. xxxx mean? What is a C.S.?

I was of the mis guided impression That S.C.C referred to an actual paint, not just a colour. This then means (to me) that the paint would have varied much more with time, weather, u.v. etc because the components required to arrive at a colour can be many.

I have followed this thread with interest, but much of it is like reading radio posts when you have no idea about them.

Gina, I aplogise for hijacking your thread.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Richard, That's fine. I posted because :
1. The ACIs are probably not that common.
2. Gina may not have had access to them.
3. Because the British paint standards would have had an influence on
Australian Paint considerations.
4. Because much of it is gibberish to me and although I have little
understanding, it seemed the you had over simplified the information in
ACI 1160.
5. How these Army Council Instructions affected the Australian Military I
don't know, but these instructions were certainly not anecdotal. They were
the the law as far as the British Army went. Orders are orders, and
contrary to what some might suggest, Commanders did not ignore orders
by a whim.
6. Knowing the basics of how the British paint system worked would help the
overall understanding, for not just me but many others that say nothing.
here.
E.g what does a Cat. No. xxxx mean? What is a C.S.?

I was of the mis guided impression That S.C.C referred to an actual paint, not just a colour. This then means (to me) that the paint would have varied much more with time, weather, u.v. etc because the components required to arrive at a colour can be many.

I have followed this thread with interest, but much of it is like reading radio posts when you have no idea about them.

Gina, I aplogise for hijacking your thread.

OK, thanks Lynn,
I thought we were going off on a tangent and did not wish to hijack the thread. The way I have understood the UK situation was that although Army Council Instructions were issued, it often states that existing stocks of the old paint are to be exhausted before the new colour is used. There would be factories with a large stock of a particular colour and still turning out vehicles in the earlier colour, until they have run out of it. So if you are going by dates of ACI's with colour changes, they were not embodied straight away, there would have been a huge waste of unused paint if that happened.

To answer your question 6, Cat. No. refers to Vocabulary Catalogue number, or to put it plainly, the stock number to demand by. HA is the prefix for paint.

SCC was a range of camouflage colours introduced, not just for vehicles, but for buildings, etc as well.
If I can find the time I can expand on ACI 1160, but a lot to do this weekend.

cheers Richard

[Mrs Vampire]

There is both a specification and a chip of KG3 in the Australian archives which compares nearly exactly to Bob Moseley colour.

Mike Thanks for the reference But isnt that an RAAF order ??? I will chase it down in any case but it still fits with my contention that KG3 was most likely used as a replacement for BDG24 up until the Introduction of the Australian colours early 1942 and that there would be hang over until the colours were available.

I would be interested to obtain those documents mentioned Lynn

I have forked over the cash to have this put online

tem title: [Transport - Trailers, Tractors, W4 A-C-G Trolleys] - Camouflage of service M/T [Mechanical Transport] vehicles [2cm]
Series number: A705
Control symbol: 211/9/430
Barcode: 516462
Access Status: Open
Price Code: Standard Digital

[Mrs Vampire]

Mike I have another problem with the painting of vehicles with Local purchase and it is this. In Jan 1942 we didn't have all that many vehicles and they wernt all that dispersed.

Pearl Harbor was only the month before we had little deployed for the defense of Australia ...or did we??... I am supposing most vehicles would be near the main city centers and especially near Sydney and Melbourne with the intention of ME shipment

All Army Vehicles would have already been painted DBG 24, KG3 or Desert colour .
Units would have been quite close to the paint manufacturers or the Engineering workshops.

For Armour we had about sixty tanks including the recently arrived Stuarts .... So how many vehicles were out there that needed a total repaint and were so deployed that supplies of the required colours were ungetable ??

I would suppose there were adequate supplies of whatever paints were being used on production vehicles which would satisfy the Instruction cited ??

Also from my reading of the files I had the impression that local supply was a reference to local paint manufacturers not the local paint shop ... There was a list of about fifty manufacturers in the files.

Mike Starmers difficulty with KG3 was resolved with the provision of the formula from the Australian archive and plate matched to the one extant chip also in the Australian archives. He also updated his Light Stone based on material from the Australian archives.

But that aside to you think there is any photographic or artifact evidence that local purchase colours were used ???