Scout T5329

[Ben]

It's been a little while since I made a post on the Scout thread but I thought I'd share an interesting find.

A few weeks ago a friend of mine sent me some photos of a few parts that a chap was trying to identify, they'd been removed by the chap's father as souvenirs off some vehicles in Belgium during May 1940. He initially thought they were from an 18 pdr.

A couple of the parts were easy to identify, Bren pintles, Brass aerial bases, but there were two parts I'd never seen before. As I scrolled through the photos and noticed the hole pattern it occurred to me that they must be the gun mount for the Scout.

I explained what I thought they were and that this bracket was missing on my Scout (it's even missing in the period AWM pictures of it on the streets of Perth) I agreed to buy all the parts and a few days later they arrived.

It fitted the holes in the front armour perfectly, they're made of gun metal by MCC (Morris commercial cars) dated 1939. They pivot horizontally and the springs allow for the recoil of the Boys rifle, the wing nuts are for clamping the gun into the mount and the rotation allows for vertical elevation. After a light sand blast I painted one and fitted it into place, pictures below.

There must be a fitting thats clamped to the Boys rifle that allows it to fit the mount, this would mean it could be dropped into the mount and locked into place by the wing nut clamps. Any pictures or suggestions are very welcome!! I've got lots of pictures from the period but no clues......... I think this fitting could be as unique as the mount as there can't me very many vehicles that had the Boys rifle solidly mounted.

Ben

[shaun]

Perhaps if you removed the monopod and rails it mounted on the barrel support "nut" as it has lugs .

[Ben]

The gun appears to stay complete. I've never seen a better picture of the mount or gun in the mount until I got these parts.
The monopod is always folded forward and at the same fixed height from the pictures I've seen.

Ben

[charlie fitton]

Can't wait to see more on this..

[Lynn Eades]

Ben, great to see the mount fitted. I did wonder if we would ever know what they looked like. Quite different from what I expected.

[ajmac]

Very nice Ben. With that square hole of the right there must be an adaptor that is missing. It must be shown in a boys manual or a scout manual one would hope. If you can borrow a Boys you could replicate your photo and see if anything lines up as a clue.
If there were such a thing, I would nominate your Scout for 'listing' just like a building of significance

[tankbarrell]

It's fantastic when these very specific parts go to the right home. Many people, aware of the rarity, assign them some huge 'value' and hang on to them.
Well done to all involved!

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ben

There must be a fitting thats clamped to the Boys rifle that allows it to fit the mount, this would mean it could be dropped into the mount and locked into place by the wing nut clamps. Any pictures or suggestions are very welcome!!

Congratulations on your miraculous find Ben. Now we just need to figure out how it works!

Boys anti tank rifle carrier mount detail.jpeg


Photo shows the gun is clamped adjacent to the trunnion, which leads me to suspect they used special trunnion bearings with projections to fit the clamps. That way there'd be no need to modify the cradle (which would inevitably involve welding and/or drilling) and the parts would offer quick easy field mod for Boys rifles in service.


Boys anti tank rifle Kevin Powles MLU (trunnion bearing detail).jpg

Boys anti tank rifle Kevin Powles MLU (trunnion bearing detail; image reversed).jpg

IMG_5161.JPG


Note that the gun mount springs are NOT intended to absorb recoil. Their purpose is to counterbalance the rifle so it rests horizontally, rather than pointing skyward and requiring the gunner to lift the heavy butt end. That's why one clamp is square, to eliminate rotation at that point. Vertical elevation is provided by the hinge pin at the bottom.


Cheers,
Tony

[Ben]

Hi Tony

I agree that a trunnion method similar to what you have drawn could be a good answer to the problem. It's very similar to what I'd imagined the fitting would look like.

The square hole does suggest that it's for stopping rotation but the springs aren't a counterbalance, they're far too strong. Even with the leverage of the gun you'd have to really force against the springs for any sort of evlevation, you can't compress them with your hand.

There are pictures of Scouts in a line and the gun barrels are all at the same angle and another at different angles, this suggests that they're free to move. The part at the rear of the flat rotation plate is a rubber rest. I've assumed that the gun sits against this when not in use, when needed the gunner lifts the butt and has free movement in a similar fashion to the way the Bren mount is used.

I've looked at an unhealthy number of period carrier pictures to try and understand how the gun fits into the mount, no real answers. Discussion here is good as it gets us all thinking.

Thanks

Ben

[Ben]

All at the rest position?

[Ben]

Different angles but whilst at rest.

[David Dunlop]

Ben.

This is a very interesting little piece of kit. Full of mysteries at the moment.

I have been looking at the photo you posted of the mount installed in your Carrier. I agree those are very hefty springs, clearly designed to push everything back into a 'resting position' whenever necessary. When i look at the top of the two spring assemblies, it appears as if the centre rods of the springs are fastened to the upper mount arm by some sort of heavy machine screw or bolt. It also appears as if the outer face of the upper, or forward metal supports are machined away at the top of each central rod assembly. This would suggest they have been designed to allow a certain amount of movement against the springs before reaching a full stop.

My thoughts on this for what they are worth.

The square hole on the right hand side of the mount would allow for only two practical positions for placement of whatever adapter was fitted to the Boys Rifle. Essentially a high and low position. Would this serve any practical purpose in the Carrier.

The Boys Rifle would be long enough to act as a lever against those two springs. It does look like the lower horizontal hinge pin allows for most of the potential elevation of the Boys Rifle, but if you elevated the rifle to the limit of that pin, would the spring assemblies kick in to allow just a little bit more height adjustment and serve as a warning you are running out of elevation?

David

[Lynn Eades]

I would think that with the Boys reputation for "kicking like a mule", that the springs are there to soften recoil.
If the unknown (still missing) mounting assembly was free to rotate in its self, then that would work.
Maybe the square is to help it stay tight in the clamps?
I would doubt any "field mods" were carried out to mount these rifles.

[Ben]

Hi David

OK, so two people have said the springs are a "balance" rather than for recoil so I've been out to the workshop and had a play.

I've fixed a bar onto the front plate at the height of the square hole (accepted pivot or mounted height) to simulate the back of the gun, sitting in the gunners seat you literally have to hang onto the bar to get it to move a tiny amount. you'd need to me a power lifter to move the bar to any sort of useful amount. Trying to fire a rifle whilst using all your strength/body weight to get the required elevation doesn't seem very practical.

They are very strong springs and they push forward. For them to balance the gun surely they'd need to allow movement up and down? At the minute the gunner would have to be holding the gun under an enormous amount of strain to even move it off the fully forward position. There is only really movement backwards and that is using a lot of force.

My money is still on recoil. The gun must elevate freely between the two clamps. Once the trigger has been pulled the rearward force of the shot is absorbed by the spring and then it returns to the forward position.

Ben

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ben

I've looked at an unhealthy number of period carrier pictures to try and understand how the gun fits into the mount

Now you've got me doing it too Ben!


Universal Carrier Mk I with experimental armoured hood and Boys anti-tank rifle, Albury Heath, S.jpg

[RichardT10829]

Trunion ring on the rifle appears to sit level with the armour... Ben how far back is the bracket mounts from the front armour ?

Once that data is known just measure back from the Trunion on the rifle

[Ben]

The Scout is the only carrier specifically designed to have the Boys fired whilst in the vehicle. The picture you posted of a universal carrier does show a Boys rifle sitting in the front slot but the only brackets to fit the Boys in a Universal are for stowage or transport, they're saddle type brackets or rests rather than a gun mount.
I think the gunner probably has the rifle sitting on the rubber gun rest at the bottom of the slot.

Ben

[RichardT10829]

Secondary Trunion ring adapt or fitted to the rifle which allows the mounting of the mono pod with a secondary hole for the mounting pin for the carrier cradle.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ben

The picture you posted of a universal carrier does show a Boys rifle sitting in the front slot but the only brackets to fit the Boys in a Universal are for stowage or transport, they're saddle type brackets or rests rather than a gun mount.

Ben, it has the same bolt pattern as yours so I assumed it was the same mount.

I found a video which contains brief footage of Boys rifle mount in operation over rough terrain. It almost looks like it's on springs but I guess we've ruled that out...?

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F01045/