Selling Personal Collections

[Robert Bergeron]

Gents,

Remember let's keep this debate civil , respectfull and friendly please... or i will leave the room ! Hahaha .

Ed, to be honest i am the volontary , non paid curator of the contemporary collection of the Saint- Georges Q.c. Legion Museum so i am the one deciding what goes inside.When i pass in the next world rejoinging with my past squadron mates and wingmen my successors can do whatever they want with the stuff even exterior monuments with my trucks and Carrier if they want. It may attract more people inside.

We each have our own motives and we must respect each other's choices .

There is great pride and joy in giving. Yes having my name and rank in half inch letters is not period correct but it is my only worldly reward. There is in this case no tax benefit , we are not recognised as a charity. My name and rank is printed in half inch characters on the left side of my airplane also. You can call it ''panache '' or anything else as long as you don't print it here please.

As for stripping veterans of their awards and medals , my knowledge only resides in the contemporary. I know of the former Col Williams and that of a few recent cases. A General officer who befriended a corporal while on operation comes to mind and a Captain ( army ) who was convicted of second degree ( maybe manslaughter ) murder of an wounded ennemy combattant and a few lesser serious cases . Anything short of what Russell Williams did is less serious. Does anyone in this room think we should of left him ( Williams ) with his awards and decorations ?

Respectfully and in all frienship .

Robert

[chris vickery]

Speaking of never seeing the light of day again...
The CWM literally has vaults full of memorabilia that will always be there, locked away sitting in the dark.
The only time items will be removed from storage is when the decision is made to put on a theme inspired exhibit and they go scrounging through storage for a few select pieces.
Furthermore, there is little need for museums to have more than one example of specific pieces. I can just imagine drawers fulls of duplicate medals.
Once in the museums hands, these items rarely make it back into the collectors realm.
Rules and regulations prohibit the exchange, sale or trade of donated materials outside of museums. It is a shame.
I have had the personal opportunity to view many personal collections that make most museums look paltry by comparison. I believe collectors take great care and pride in their collections and give them a better home. Afterall, personal collectors spend their own time and money to make these investments and caring for them is in their own best interests. The same cannot be said for collections owned and managed by paid employees where it is merely a job, funding can be cut or museums closed.

[rob love]

Chris
As collectors, the appeal to us is quality, along with rarity, and in some cases quantity. To the average member of the public, which is 99% of the viewers of most museums, the artifacts must tell, or be part of, a story.

The average person is not interested in the rarity of a beat up LongBranch 1941 no4mk1 over seeing a pristine FTRd British made rifle being displayed. Nor would most care to even know the difference. So the massive walls of webbing that might well entertain us will be lost on the normal tours of people to the museums. So yes, 95% or more of the artifacts will be in storage, but from my experience, they will be well stored and there when the time does come that a suitable theme presents itself to draw them out.

Yes, it would be great to have coliseum sized museums, but the public appetite for the cost just isn't there.

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Speaking of never seeing the light of day again...
The CWM literally has vaults full of memorabilia that will always be there, locked away sitting in the dark.
The only time items will be removed from storage is when the decision is made to put on a theme inspired exhibit and they go scrounging through storage for a few select pieces.
Furthermore, there is little need for museums to have more than one example of specific pieces. I can just imagine drawers fulls of duplicate medals.
Once in the museums hands, these items rarely make it back into the collectors realm.
Rules and regulations prohibit the exchange, sale or trade of donated materials outside of museums. It is a shame.
I have had the personal opportunity to view many personal collections that make most museums look paltry by comparison. I believe collectors take great care and pride in their collections and give them a better home. Afterall, personal collectors spend their own time and money to make these investments and caring for them is in their own best interests. The same cannot be said for collections owned and managed by paid employees where it is merely a job, funding can be cut or museums closed.

[chris vickery]

Rob, agreed.
The is also something to be said for the service provided by ordinary members of the public who we refer to as collectors.
What I mean by this is the level of commitment undertaken by individuals to research, collect, find and finance artifacts which would, could or will be ravaged or lost to time.
Collectively, there are way more individuals collectors who have the time and passion to pursue these things, while most museums have limited budgets, time and research staff.
I support museums but also the individuals. One does not survive without the other.

[Robert Bergeron]

I knew i could trust the members of this forum to debate with respect of each other's opinions.

I certainly agree with Chris, Rob and Ed in most and every aspect. Private collectors are the reason why the better '' stuff '' is preserved .

As for ''Mister '' , the treason of trust is what ''kills '' me . In the Middle Ages , a Knight ( today's equivalent of an officer ) who would breach his oath like ''Mister '' did would have his sword broken , his family crest disposed of in fire and his head cut off with an axe. His body would then be left to rot for crows to feast . No burial in a cathedral or consecrated grounds.

I think what the Chain of Command did with his commission and medals is the modern equivalent. As for the the pension, the anomaly here is that it cannot be forfeited or seized in favour of his victim's families.

I am way out of the subject but i have recurring nightmares of MCpl Comeau recognising her assailiant , torturer and eventual killer. He was her Wing' s CO for God's sake !

Thanks for your comments.



Robert

[maple_leaf_eh]

I can think of a handful of service members who have been released in disgrace and had their CDs recovered - the senior officer and the junior officer mentioned, and an intelligence analyst. Just recently a female Air Nav' got court martialed for wearing unearned awards, which cost her the OMM and other punishments. But what about the other hundreds of service men and women who get into trouble with the law every year? Don't convicted drunk drivers, shoplifters, and assailants also bring disrepute upon the Forces? Shouldn't they have their long service good conduct medals pulled too?

Bob mentioned above that what the Queen gives, she can take away. By that definition, wouldn't medals be an in-their-lifetime temporary loan, with the return spring taking effect upon death?

[Dianaa]

Just to touch on the issue of revoking military medals, the only medal that can't be revoked is the Victoria Cross. While a VC recipient from the second Afghan War (and WWI) Pte. James Collis, was awarded the VC, he later had it forfeited because of bigamy. After a petition to King George V the award was restored after James Collis VC died.

The King proclaimed at the time "No matter the crime committed by anyone on whom the VC has been conferred, the decoration should not be forfeited. Even were a VC recipient to be sentenced to be hanged for murder, he should be allowed to wear his medal on the scaffold.”

[rob love]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

I can think of a handful of service members who have been released in disgrace and had their CDs recovered - the senior officer and the junior officer mentioned, and an intelligence analyst. Just recently a female Air Nav' got court martialed for wearing unearned awards, which cost her the OMM and other punishments. But what about the other hundreds of service men and women who get into trouble with the law every year? Don't convicted drunk drivers, shoplifters, and assailants also bring disrepute upon the Forces? Shouldn't they have their long service good conduct medals pulled too?

Bob mentioned above that what the Queen gives, she can take away. By that definition, wouldn't medals be an in-their-lifetime temporary loan, with the return spring taking effect upon death?

Here is the link to the official answers that you seek. http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-pol...-01/ch-18.page

Section 4 covers forfeitures. As always when reading regulations (and drill manuals), note the difference between shall and may.

Nothing there about the return of any of them upon death.

[Ed Storey]

Dean, yes of course I knew Philippe and got to see some of his fantastic collection while visiting him in France. It was a highlight from one of many trips to Europe.

Generally I try to keep my personal accomplishments, acquaintances and military career of out of my posts as I feel that I don't need to list these things in order to make my point or promote discussion.

[Ed Storey]

I think in the case of the larger national museums, items in their care even if not on display will be perhaps better looked after as the museum may have the proper conservation funds and storage.

As for the love or the passion for the items, I have no doubt that collectors have the edge as these are the people forking over their money to obtain the items.

Unfortunately in either hand, a piece can be mismanaged.

[Ed Storey]

In the case of Mr. Williams I would certainly agree that being stripped of his medals was correct, not only due to the magnitude of the crimes he was convicted of committing, but that he was in uniform when he committed them.

What I found particularly interesting was the speed and veracity in which he was expunged of his military career. Commission revoked and destroyed, medals and uniforms destroyed and a notice stating that he will only be referred to as Mister.

I also found it interesting that not one national museum made any effort to save anything from this man - all apparently sat silently as federal institutions fueled by passion and perhaps revenge made a concerted effort to get rid of everything. I am not saying save some of this material as a tribute to the man, but as an example of items owned by a heinous criminal who wore the uniform, especially if in years from now there is an exhibition on notorious Canadian criminals. So much for preserving history.

[rob love]

I think the fact that Williams even got a pension was an aberration. One of the chief principals of leadership is to look out for your men. When he decided to rape and murder a MCpl under his command chain, and had likely used his position of authority to look up her home address or particulars, I believe he negated any and all reward from the crown for his service. A return of contributions was the best he should have got, and even that should have been held pending lawsuits against his estate.

Yes it is a dangerous game to play, as one would wonder where the line would be drawn to relieve a service member from their pensions. But I doubt anyone could argue that, as in this case, it is well beyond any line that could be drawn.

As to having his material saved for inclusion in some notorious Cdn criminal exhibit, I think the selfie photos of him posing in girls underclothing is good enough.

Rant over.