Photos needed. Shed full of S**t Auction

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi all,

Ive spoken to Howard, but he no longer has the photo's, so i thought it best to ask here.

Does anyone have any of the photos saved? In particular, i am interested in the ones which Howard and crew had labelled as 'Blitz Wynch', which as it later turned out to be was a Dawn #2 off the modification kit for the MB/GPW. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5503, about 3/4 way down, Tony Smith ID'd it.



What would be even better was if anyone knew who bought said winch and bits as i would love to speak to them (not to buy it from them, merely for details). Howard had those buyer details but in a christmas cleanup a few weeks before my call they moved on to a bigger and better place!

Thanks in advance,
Ian.

[Tony Wheeler]

I can furnish info and pics of the winch itself as I have the exact same unit on a blitz, but of course I'm no help with the jeep related parts.

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Tony,

Thanks very much for the offer mate! I have a Dawn #2 winch here also, but was more hoping to see an original one to be fitted to a jeep, with the hope hat the pics might have had some other details of the handle and mechanisms etc (which as you can see from the pic is a complicated little bugger!).

I have some info on these, but was hoping to see one 'in the flesh' or as close as those pics would be.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ian Fawbert

details of the handle and mechanisms etc (which as you can see from the pic is a complicated little bugger!)

Yes it's got me puzzled too Ian, it almost looks likes a power drive rather than a manual handle, but either way it still makes no sense to me. Hopefully one of the jeep guys here knows more and will chime in.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Yes it's got me puzzled too Ian, it almost looks likes a power drive rather than a manual handle, but either way it still makes no sense to me. Hopefully one of the jeep guys here knows more and will chime in.

Ian,
It looks like the short shaft at outer end of winding shaft, folds out and locks, so it is away from the body and a cranking handle with a flat bar slides in the end of it. Only power is one man!

regards, Richard

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Mate,

It's a hand operated thing (must've been slow!!!) but I think the one in the photo is missing past of the handle as we see it in the photo. The details I have show the handle is meant to be 'locked' in to that bracket next to the ARN on the mudguard when not in use.

It'd be great to find someone with a jeep still on it- got close last year ahem I saw a jeep on display, but it was a much smaller Dawn winch fitted, not the official mod. My guess though is that like most things the aussie army did to jeeps, restorers have undone them thinking that it was cocky mod or that their jeep must be a US army one and ignoring its true history!

Dawn is still in business, I must contact them and see what they know!

Thanks Tony,
Ian.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

a cranking handle with a flat bar slides in the end of it.

Thanks Richard, I finally get the idea now! I hadn't considered that slot in the outer boss, which is the correct size for the Dawn crank handle, and provides variable cranking radius by sliding through to the desired position according to cable load. That would be essential with this modification kit because the winch is fixed permanently in low ratio, so you'd need to shorten the handle to wind it rapidly, particularly when reeling in loose cable after winching.







Presumably the folding shaft extension is designed to protect it from damage through tree strikes etc., and while the locking mechanism isn't quite clear to me there's obviously a retaining cage of some kind, possibly sprung, to keep it in both the locked and retracted positions. All in all a rather clever design and no doubt a very welcome piece of kit when bogged in a jeep with no CMP nearby to tow you out! Yes it would be a bit slower than a power winch but sure beats trying to push it out with spinning wheels covering you in mud!

BTW it turns out my own winch is a No.5 so I'm not sure what's on this jeep because it looks identical to me. Is there any major difference between the No.2 and No.5 ? As you can see it came with a home made short handle as well as the Dawn handle, and while the short one is much faster to use and a lot more ergonomic, it starts to become hard work for anything heavier than a ton so I switched to the Dawn handle. It's a pain in the neck to swing through such a wide arc but I need the extra leverage for lift towing.

[Mike Cecil]

I assume a Dawn No.2 simply means a two ton capacity winch, which is what the 'Kit's Recovery' specified, along with 120 feet of 3/8 inch wire rope. (So is a Dawn No.5 a 5 ton capacity winch with, presumably, a heavier/thicker rope?)

The winch assembly and fitting was described in MGO Equipment Memorandum 13 of Sept 1944 - which I assume is what Ian is using as his main reference. The kits were manufactured by Ford Motor Company (there is more to the kit than the basic Dawn winch), with 230 kits ordered under CD-E8745.

Problems were encountered in the supply of the correct diameter wire rope, which slowed delivery until a variation to design was authorized.

Have never been able to find anything definitive on the number built, but judging from photo images, I'd guess not very many made it onto the front of jeeps.


Mike C

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

and while the locking mechanism isn't quite clear to me there's obviously a retaining cage of some kind, possibly sprung, to keep it in both the locked and retracted positions.

Hi Tony,

It may have an arrangement at the folding joint, not unlike that on the crank handle support legs of semi-trailers. One part of the shaft could have a male extension that enters in to a hole in the other part and hinge joint could be slotted to allow the shafts to lock together.

Richard

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

So is a Dawn No.5 a 5 ton capacity winch with, presumably, a heavier/thicker rope?

The same thought occurred to me the other day Mike when I learned it was a No.5 but I couldn't find any info on the net. However I believe it's just a Dawn ID number rather than a capacity rating, and there's certainly no such claim on the winch itself. It looks pretty much the same as the one on the jeep so I don't see how it could be 2 1/2 times stronger. Also if the front of that Cab 12 weighs in the vicinity of 2 tons as I imagine it would, then based on the force required on the long Dawn crank handle I would consider that to be a reasonable rating, bearing in mind they're usually on the conservative side. I'm sure it could lift more, especially with less cable on the drum, but even if it could lift 5 tons, which I'm inclined to doubt, I would definitely rule it out as a rating for all practical purposes. I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to hang off the end of the handle with your feet kicking wildly in the air trying to turn it!

[Lynn Eades]

So the pioneering spirit is dead then

[Brett Nicholls]

Hi Guy's,
Another AWM picture and ......again Dawn winch mounted on a Ford Jeep! Obviously Fords were not quite as good as the Willys and needed the extra help

Oh what can of worms I think I just opened

On a serious note - I some how think the installation was easier on the Ford's due to the front cross member shape but I have no proof - it's just a hunch. Note also the front grille intact vertical bars.

Regards,
Brett.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Brett Nicholls

Hi Guy's,
Another AWM picture and ......again Dawn winch mounted on a Ford Jeep! .

I can see now how the folding handle was stowed.

[Lynn Eades]

Brett, Re the "Can of Worms"
Maybe the Ford chassis was robust enough to handle the load?

.......and it is a Ford because????

[Tony Smith]

More pics in THIS THREAD.

I'm trying to find to old "For sale" thread when I sold my Dawn Winch, and I think it was either Ian or Brett who ended up buying it. Was lots of pics in that listing.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to hang off the end of the handle with your feet kicking wildly in the air trying to turn it!

Upon reflection my own winch cannot be considered indicative, because the cable drags on the crossbar due to poor installation. This would greatly increase the handle force required, particularly with heavier loads.




For a proper installation we can calculate the handle force required from the gearing (24.5:1 reduction in low ratio) and the mechanical advantage provided by the crank handle radius (485mm for the Dawn handle) relative to the cable winding radius (approx 50 - 150mm depending on how much cable is wound on the drum). For a 2 ton lift this works out to between 19 and 57 lbs. A standard two gallon plastic bucket of water weighs 20 lbs, which means that for the first layer of cable on the drum you could lift 2 tons easily with only one hand, using only the force required to lift a bucket of water. Even with the drum fully wound you could comfortably exert 3 times that force using two hands. If you really put your back into it you could probably manage 100 lbs, which would lift 3.5 tons with the cable drum full, or 10 tons with the cable drum empty. For someone of my weight (approx 85 kg) you would only need to hang off the handle if you were lifting 7 tons with the cable drum full, or 20 tons if it were empty. Based on these calculations you could reasonably rate this winch at 3 tons, requiring 57 lbs handle force, ie. 3 buckets of water, with the cable drum half-full.

We can perform a similar calculation for the Dawn No. 2 winch on the jeep. While it appears to be identical to my Dawn No.5 winch, closer inspection reveals it to be considerably smaller, the only common part being the pinion gear. As a double reduction winch the relative size of the larger gears indicates a ratio of around 16:1 on this unit, which being approx 2/3rds of the No.5 ratio would lead to a rating of 2 tons instead of 3 tons.

Irrespective of any nominal rating it's the wrong choice for the jeep application in my view, being far too low geared.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Irrespective of any nominal rating it's the wrong choice for the jeep application in my view, being far too low geared.

Having just seen this pic of the Dawn No.2 winch drum bare of cable I may need to reconsider, as the inner diameter appears to be considerably larger than the No.5 drum on which my calculations are based. This would improve the situation although I suspect it was still geared overly low for the required purpose.

[David Dunlop]

Not to detract from this thread, Tony, but what is the purpose of the metal boxes covering the front bumper mounting points? Never seen that setup before. Part of the winch kit perhaps?


David

[Lynn Eades]

David, I would suggest a bumper extention as the winch mount sticks out forward of the bumper.
Interestingly this is a slat grill (first 10,000 and all of course were on Willys Chassis)
That the guard is already damaged and that there is a sheet of mesh in front of the radiator.
There is a hook on the front bumper, that I would guess is for a 2:1 pull.
(rope eye back onto the Jeep?)
I see also that the park light has been moved and that the bonnet is unbolted and sitting forward.

[Mike Cecil]

This is an image of the early trials/test mounting. It was not how the design ended up. The extensions were indeed part of the early winch kit development, and because the test mounting protruded forward of the bumper.

The final mounting sat further back, and had a slat cut from the grill to accommodate this, as is visible in the early image posted on the thread, showing a jeep of the 24 Infantry Brigade HQ, 9th Infantry Division, with what looks like a Japanese officer in the back: possibly taking the surrender in British Borneo? Nice image.

Mike C

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Ian Fawbert

What would be even better was if anyone knew who bought said winch and bits as i would love to speak to them (not to buy it from them, merely for details).
Thanks in advance,
Ian.

I have found the pics on my old computer of the winch I sold in 2005. Fess up, Ian was it you or Brett it went to? In 2005, I don't think it was this incarnation of MLU, it may have been the old Network54 version, which would explain why I can't find the old thread which had a wealth of info on the Aust Jeep fitment.

As you can see, it had the operating shaft extended (crudely) to a point similar to the Jeep pics, but still used the original drive gear.

[Brett Nicholls]

Hi Guy's,

Lynn - I think the terms "Fixed Or Repaired Daily" come to mind but I have to be honest - Hi everyone. My Name is Brett and I own a Ford.. Lol but yes I admit I have never seen a Ford front cross member cracked from wear and tear.

Mike - On a serious note you mention the proto types had the Winch sitting forward Hence the spacers on the front bumper and on the Later installations the Bar sat back hence the removal of one of the Jeeps bars from the Grille. Note the second AWM photo, which I posted, and that particular Jeep has neither the bar removed or the spacers on the front bar. Strange - maybe another slight change to installation?.

Tony Smith - I admit....it was Ian all along - I then got Jealous and had to buy my own from the Dubbo Museum auction

Regards,
Brett.

[Mike Cecil]

Not sure the bar is complete: depends where it is cut. I gather only the lower half of the bar got in the way.

You'll also note that the production vehicle has the winch mounted more towards the centre, hence the long winding arm with a bearing mount.

The image of the one sold at auction has a very stout looking winding axle/arm: much thicker then the ones shown on the period images. Is it genuine or a later addition?

Mike C

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi all,

Thanks everyone for their info and thoughts. It is a very interesting part of the aussie jeeps history!

Re weight capability of the winch, in the photos supplied by Mike Kelly in the thread Tony Smith linked to (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=19724) , on the winch Drum itself (as seen in the photo with the handle in the series of 3 Mike posted), the drum reads-
Dawn XXXXX (WINCH?) Australia (on the outer ring of text)
and
2 Ton All Steel (on the inner ring of text)

Tony Smith, yes it is me who has your winch now (sitting safely in the shed awaiting use!). Those pics you posted are of the winch I bought, but as can be seen in the pics of the modification kit and Tony Wheelers handle, the one from your/my winch has been very modified!- hence i was hoping to see some details of the one from Howards sale for more info on the handle!

Mike, thanks for the additional info on the kit. The MGO was the primary source, but coupled with a few other bibs and bobs i'd seen and people had told me. I often wonder how many jeeps got fitted also (hadnt seen any in the ledgers with this noted unlike other kit additions recorded for some vehicles) and wonder how many people thought the kit was a farmers mod or welded a bar back in their grill (from what i have gathered, it was the whole bar to be taken out). Can you shed any other light on areas i could follow or look in to find more info on this kit? Are the details for CD-E8745 available somewhere?


The pic above of the multi coloured winch is the one Tony Smith sold me a few years back- the extended winding arm/axle is a home done thing i believe. Im not sure (havent dug deep enough) if it is a ww2 winch with military paint on it as i havent checked back through the layers of paint, but it did match the details id seen of the army installed ones.

Cheers all,
Ian.

[Mike Cecil]

Ian,

I'm sorry to say you have all the info I have on that Contract Demand (CD) in this thread, as you'll see when Volume 1 of Lloyd White's new book on the MB comes out later this year (I wrote the Australian chapter). There wasn't enough solid info to warrant much more than a paragraph or two on the Dawn winch mod, plus some liberal quoting from the MGO Memorandum, and a single image (the 9th Div jeep coming ashore).

I have to wonder if the CD was the only one (especially given the difficulty with the supply of the specified cable) and therefore the total number of which kits provided to Army, given images (and survivors) are so rare. Being supplied as a field mod kit, they could have been fitted to any jeep at field workshop level, (or simply left on the shelf), hence I'm not at all surprised that there are no annotations in the registration ledgers.

Mike C

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Mike,

Thanks very much for that. I will keep digging then into it (both the Contract Demand side and any other avenue) and see what i can find on the kit. I agree with you though, its unlikely many of those 230 produced you quoted were fitted and thus the low survival rate and also unlikely there was another CD for the winch kit (also hence why i was so keen to see the pics from the one Howards auction sold!).

Out of curiosity, if you dont mind, where did you find info on the problem with the cable size?

Cheers,
Ian.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

I have to wonder if the CD was the only one (especially given the difficulty with the supply of the specified cable).

There's certainly a shortage of cable on this 9th Div jeep winch, looks like the equivalent of one full layer on the drum, which works out to a little over 20' length. However it's definitely 3/8" cable, as opposed to 7/16" on Tony's old winch and also my Dawn No.5 winch.





From this we might infer limited stock of 3/8" cable which was rationed, and no suitable alternative available. Why else would you shorten the cable so drastically from the 120' spec, which is comparable to 125' CMP spec? You could still use the winch effectively by extending the cable with rope as req'd and winding in 20' at a time. You don't need much rope strength to pull a jeep slowly through mud, and with this winch I mean EXCRUCIATINGLY slowly! Even up a 45 degree incline you only need 1/2 ton force which would only require the rope to be doubled up.

Yes it's highly speculative but there must be a reason for shortening the cable so drastically, and there must also be a reason why so few jeeps had what strikes me as an extraordinarily useful piece of kit, notwithstanding slow operation. Nowadays we have electric front mount winches and no one goes off-road without one, and judging by all the wartime pics of jeeps being towed or pushed through bogs there was plainly a need for this mod. Indeed the very existence of this mod tells us that. It could even be operated under water to ford deep creeks and rivers, rather than waiting hours for a truck to come along. I know I'd be a lot happier going bush with one of these on the front, esp. in jungle terrain.

Therefore I suspect you're right Mike, all the evidence points to this mod being scotched after the first order due to lack of cable, as there was still a whole year of war to go. I'd be interested to see a blow up of the 9th Div jeep coming ashore, it too looks short on cable to me, and may even have non-spec cable, ie. much thicker.

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Tony,

Sounds logical to me!

Heres a bigger version and you seem to be right (eagle eyed!), not much cable.



Cheers,
Ian.

[Richard Farrant]

Tony and Ian,
Another reason for not having many layers of rope on the drum is due to "effort required". Maybe experience told them of the usual length of pull required, the more unused rope on the drum, the more effort required to wind the handle.
Each layer will increase the load on the operator, the only other option is to use some thing like a Trewhella rope grab, to clamp on the rope down its length in order to start on bottom layer.

Of course if shortage of steel wire rope then it could be the real reason.

I spent a good deal of time repair and testing all kinds of winches for the army from hand operated winches, recovery vehicles through to 30 ton winches on Caterpillars. Each layer on the drum on a vehicle winch, reduces its pulling power before the cut out trips in.

regards, Richard

[Tony Wheeler]

Sound logic Richard but when you do the math you find this winch is geared ridiculously low for recovery work. It's permanently in low ratio, which is designed for lifting 2 tons vertically over a few feet, not pulling a one ton vehicle horizontally over 120 feet! It can be calculated that would require 1400 turns of the handle, advancing the jeep only 1" per turn. The only way this winch would be remotely practical is with the handle set at minimal length, eg. 6" or less, and wound rapidly with one hand, in the manner of cranking a motor. That's no problem as the handle force required is less than 20lbs, so you could keep up a steady rate of 100 rpm or more, which would get the job done in a few minutes. However I believe it would be much better with a higher ratio and the handle set longer, so you could shorten it over the easy stretches and go much faster. That said though it's a helluva lot better than no winch at all!