British Empire Staff Cars

[Les Freathy]

Here is another oddball from the 1930s a Morris Wasp powered by a 8hp engine and featured for wheel drive,is it me or would you say it looks rather unstable

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I wonder if Les's MCC car is the one mentioned in the 1936 WD Trials Report possibly later M 3917446? Two WD MCC vehicles were trialled from 1935, one a Normal Control intended for use as a 8-cwt "van" i.e pick-up and the other a Forward Control machine intended for employment as a scout car. The majority of components were interchangeable with the CS8 T Series III Truck (15-cwt). The trials of the chassis with NC was discintinued but the FC was tried but the experiment abandoned owing to change in requirements surrounding the type of vehicle. It was then tested with a passenger carrying body as a staff car but found unsuitable and was going to be adopted as a van for carrying wireless equipment.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

[Bill Murray]

Hi David:
1940 Ford and a very rare 1938 Oldsmobile
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I thought it was an Olds as well...8-cylinder? The grilles differed between the six- and eight-cylinder cars. This might have been a re-captured Contintental car ir a British car (is it rhd?) sequestred as I can't see it having shipped from the States.

[Bill Murray]

Hi David:
It is a Six Cyl as denoted by the much wider grille bar spacing compared to the Eight cyl.
As far as I know, the US never used such a vehicle as a staff car and have never seen a photo of one. However, I post here a photo off of Google from a modelling company that does a resin 1938 Olds 6 Staff Car. If I have time, I will contact them to see where they got the idea from.
I would imagine it was either shipped to or assembled somewhere in Europe as even if it had been a US staff car they would never have sent that old a vehicle to Europe.
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I can definitely imagine that if it was rhd, and I can't tell, that it was "acquired" as a military staff car. The big US and Canadian cars were in high demand as staff cars, or used for towing hose reels etc. and also converted to Utilities with van style bodies.

[servicepub (RIP)]

The attached car is, according to the Cdn Census number, a 1935 model. Can someone identify make and model please?

[Bill Murray]

Evening Clive:

Your car should be a 1935 Ford Roadster Type 710.

In the US, the body was done by Murray (no connection to me) and 4.896 were built here.

I do not know if Ford Canada built this same model as a strictly Canadian version but I would sort of doubt it.
Bill

[servicepub (RIP)]

Bill,
Thanks for the identification. Unusual type of car as a military purchase - especially in the cash-strapped army of the mid-30s.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The DND had a number of 1934, 1935 and 1936 Ford "phaetons". I think five '36 phaetons were retained in 1938 when the 1938 G/S Chevrolet trucks arrived. The rest were sold off.

In my understanding a "phaeton" is a four-door touring car. Did the DND use the description for open cars generally?

[Bill Murray]

Hi David:
Yes, the Canadians did have Ford Phaetons in those year models.
I think Clive or someone posted a batch of very good photos of these in the last two years or so. I have not yet done a search.

Not to preach to the choir, but for those who do not follow automotive terms, a Roadster is a two door open car with no fixed side windows and a Phaeton is a four door open car with no fixed side windows. Both styles used a snap in sort of plexiglass panel for weather protection.

A convertible and it's four door cousin a convertible sedan, had wind up windows.

I do not believe I had seen a Roadster photo such as was just posted before in Canadian service. Not very practical unless a Ranking Officer's Runabout.

Here is a photo of a restored 1935 Phaeton that recently sold for about $50.000 US.
Bill

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Hi David:
Yes, the Canadians did have Ford Phaetons in those year models.
I think Clive or someone posted a batch of very good photos of these in the last two years or so.

Les posted a 1936 Phaeton and it can be seen on page 2 of this thread

A convertible and it's four door cousin a convertible sedan, had wind up windows.

Nice to know the difference between a Phaeton and a convertible.

I do not believe I had seen a Roadster photo such as was just posted before in Canadian service. Not very practical unless a Ranking Officer's Runabout.

I will do some research but I believe that it belonged to the ranking Artillery officer at Camp Petawawa (probably a Colonel)

[Bill Murray]

Hi Clive:

Your idea may be entirely correct.

My Father, when a Colonel in charge of the USMC Basic School in 1953-1954 drove a pristine Model A Coupe back and forth to his office. As the story goes, the car was passed from one Basic School commander to the next. No money changed hands, it was just passed on. About as practical as the Ford Roadster.

Basic School is a bit of a misnomer, as it was the School that all new Officers had to attend prior to being let out to "Command The Troops". Even those that had been to the Naval Academy or other such higher education venues.

My younger brother visited Quantico VA, where the Basic School is located a few weeks ago for the first time in some 50 years. I will have to ask him if the Model A Coupe is still in service for the CO of the Basic School.

Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This is a list from my book:

SERIES 48
4-passenger Deluxe RS Roadster
5-passenger Deluxe Phaeton
4-passenger Rumble Seat Cabrio

So that's what it is then: 2-passenger plus RS.

[Alex]

Bill Murray's story about the USMC model A reminds me of the arangement at R.A.F. station Northolt in west London where for many years the Station commander's official vehicle was a black london taxi. I don't know if this is still the case or even when this tradition was begun? It was there when I attended a camp there as a cadet in about 1980 and was still in service on my return to the station as a serving officer years later. Any one know more?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Note sure if it's a '39 or '40 Model.

aam410a.jpg aam411a.jpg

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This was taken in Normandy or Belgium, 1944:

M 1164071: delivered under Contract V.4056 or V4213, but what's the truck next to it?

http://www.chrishodgephotos.co.uk/pixcma/aan647.jpg


Close-up

aan647a.jpg

[Bill Murray]

Hi David:

Regarding your latest:
The car is a Mercury and I cannot tell from the photos if it is a 1939 or 1940. The tail lights are the ID tip and one cannot see them here. The Mercury had a different sculpture to the rear wheel opening than the Ford.

The truck appears to my eyes to be a variant of the Fordson WOT2, based on the wheel type and the shape of the cargo body.

Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Are they British or Canadian officers then? Interesting that it could be a Mercury...some '39 Models were imported new into the UK as civvy models but this is a mystery unless a Canadian staff car?

[Bill Murray]

I don't know much about uniforms so cannot tell you the nationality of the users.

Just as with GM, though, FMC sold all of their cars all over the world and not a small number of Mercuries ended up in military use in WWII.

I will post two from my hard drive here, one in Turkey and the other a Beute vehicle somewhere on the Eastern Front.

Bill

mercury1939turkey.jpg 0802mercury.jpg

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Close-up

[lynx42]

1940 Chev in Syria in 1941. (Sorry it's a bit damaged.)

[lynx42]

Here is my 1940 Chev. I found it in a hayshed in Western Victoria. Enquiries through the Australian War Memorial in Canberra prove that it was General Stanley Savige's Staff car throughout the Middle East, 1940/41. Gen.Savige was the OC of the 17th Brigade, 6th Australian Division. The car arrives back in OZ in April 1942 on the S.S.Somerville and then was used on the North/South road between Alice Springs and Darwin. It was sold to a Mr.Williams of Ararat Vic in 1945, who owned it until 1971 and then sold it to John Woodburn of Dunkeld. I found it in 1993 and purchased it for the grand sum of $2.00. (yes, the decimal point is in the right place). It is now painted in the Syrian Campaign colours 1941 when the 17th Brigade were fighting the Vichy French.

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by lynx42

Here is my 1940 Chev. I found it in a hayshed in Western Victoria. Enquiries through the Australian War Memorial in Canberra prove that it was General Stanley Savige's Staff car throughout the Middle East, 1940/41. Gen.Savige was the OC of the 17th Brigade, 6th Australian Division. The car arrives back in OZ in April 1942 on the S.S.Somerville and then was used on the North/South road between Alice Springs and Darwin. It was sold to a Mr.Williams of Ararat Vic in 1945, who owned it until 1971 and then sold it to John Woodburn of Dunkeld. I found it in 1993 and purchased it for the grand sum of $2.00. (yes, the decimal point is in the right place). It is now painted in the Syrian Campaign colours 1941 when the 17th Brigade were fighting the Vichy French.

Rick

That Chev of yours would have to be the ultimate shed find .. it rivals or eclipses the 42 Ford sedan shed find of Bert Barker . Amazing that you fathomed out its history .

Back in the early 1980's , a VMVC member up Ballarat way , found a complete and original 1941 15cwt Morris Commercial CS8 in a shed , the original canvas was still sitting in the back of it . It was made driveable and it appeared at the 1985 Ballarat airshow we attended as a club event . It wasn't restored , just cleaned up slightly .The Ballarat member decided to sell it , it was advertised it in the VMVC newsletter for a very good price ( around 1986 ?) Why didn't I buy it .... It's now up at the Moama museum.

It was one of those once in a lifetime chances .Too slow or hesitate and it's gone .

Mike

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by lynx42

Here is my 1940 Chev. I found it in a hayshed in Western Victoria. Enquiries through the Australian War Memorial in Canberra prove that it was General Stanley Savige's Staff car throughout the Middle East, 1940/41. Gen.Savige was the OC of the 17th Brigade, 6th Australian Division. The car arrives back in OZ in April 1942 on the S.S.Somerville and then was used on the North/South road between Alice Springs and Darwin. It was sold to a Mr.Williams of Ararat Vic in 1945, who owned it until 1971 and then sold it to John Woodburn of Dunkeld. I found it in 1993 and purchased it for the grand sum of $2.00. (yes, the decimal point is in the right place). It is now painted in the Syrian Campaign colours 1941 when the 17th Brigade were fighting the Vichy French.

And you can see it in action on the Corowa 07 Year of the cycle and staff car DVD along with an interview with Rick.

[Keith Brooker]

Does any one have a rear photo of a Humber Staff Car?
I did find some 900 x 13 tyres, 2nd hand, but good, off Millweb. bought the last 4 he had. its worth looking on that web site.

[servicepub (RIP)]

I copied these photos from the Canadian Forces Communications and Electronics Museum (formerly Royal Canadian Corps of Signals). Can I get an ID please. I believe that they were taken in 1938. The motorcycles are BSAs.
The markings on the vehicles are "RCS 10x"



This was taken on the same occasion as above.


No information on this other than a date (1938) on the back of the photo.

[Bill Murray]

This is not an Empire car either, but it is in the spirit of the thread.

Chou En Lai's 1941 Buick Special Staff Car on display in Beijing.

Could be ex US Navy or even ex Australian as they both used the same car.
Bill

[Nigel Watson]

Here is a picture of my staff car, badged to 4th Indian Infantry Division and used in North Africa during the early part of the desert campaigns. Camouflage pattern is the Caunter.