Humber FV1611(A)

[fv1620]

Wayne here is the drawing made for cutting the main side. Obviously different for a FV1609 from a FV1611. As you will appreciate it is difficult take measurements for something that is in thin air. The net result was errors of an inch or so as something wasn't right with the angles, giving a deficiency one end & surplus the other



The result was to build the frame & feel happy with that then to cover it & cut it down to shape. Without the skill or equipment to spot-weld & I had no MIG at the time, I cheated by fixing the outer sheet to the wheel arch with countersunk rivets which were eventually smoothed over with filler. I just didn't want to risk melting through or buckling the thin sheet.



Given my propensity for reversing the Pig into various obstructions, the lockers on a frame have proved more durable & easier to repair than a more authentic series of flimsy sheets held together with spot-welds.

Yes various bits of CES & other kit could go in the lockers, no specific space allocations. Unless you keep it under cover from the rain there isn't too much you would want to store in there given the points of entry for water & worse on yours as you have another hinge.

Incidentally the picture of it in red oxide, the top lockers hasps were just from B&Q & are surprisingly close to what was originally fitted. The small side locker is original with its original hasp that is far enough away to pass as being the same. The crudely welded domestic hinges have been criticised, but as you realise when you look at yours these are entirely original fittings that were on the NOS lids I was lucky enough to have.

The bits I had were mainly front wing under locker support pieces & I think perhaps part of the locker internals. There was the top side hinged piece & I think in Reading the main side wall that it attaches to over the wheel arch.

PS You will see my comment to the metal cutter to make the cuts a bit wide in case the geometry was wrong! This proved very worthwhile, even so I was still short along one edge but by tilting it I was able to get full coverage for trimming down. On reflection I should have just order a more basic shape to give me plenty of spare to play with. All I wanted was to have sheets that were of a manageable size that could be fixed to the frame to give support & enhance the quality of cut. Having rigid support like this it was quite easy to cut it into shape with those very thin angle grinder discs.

[FV1611A]

You didn't mention the thickness/ gauge of steel plate used.

[fv1620]

Originally Posted by FV1611A

You didn't mention the thickness/ gauge of steel plate used.

Wayne I think you need to withdraw the frying pan once you have studied the diagram

I think it might be twice the original thickness.

[FV1611A]

Originally Posted by FV1611A

You didn't mention the thickness/ gauge of steel plate used. :

DOH! Well spotted.......The frying pan is for me Clive.....What a Wolly!

With a magazine of five rounds.......LOAD!......To the muppet to your front in your own time go-on!......

[FV1611A]

I did guesstimate that 2mm would be a minimum thickness to use.

Using your dims and then a bit of licence to create the pictorial image I have knocked up the attached to use as a template for actual measurements and then adaptation. AutoCAD does have its uses outside Architecture!

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by FV1611A

DOH! Well spotted.......The frying pan is for me Clive.....What a Wolly!

With a magazine of five rounds.......LOAD!......To the muppet to your front in your own time go-on!......

Maybe I'm blind or stupid but what the hell is "Material 1.6MM" right at the top of the drawing..??

[fv1620]

Wayne that's a nice clean diagram. Points you may be aware of, but worth mentioning:

The top 'horizontal' lid slopes down to the outer main wall. Although the slope is more pronounced on the FV1609. So the outer wall has to be made shorter than corresponding shadow it casts on the Pig itself.

The long upper side lid when it folds down reveals not a matching rectangular space but a space that at each end is bordered by rounded upward extensions of the main outer wall.

You'll need to be very careful with the lower sloped panel ensuring it is true in perpetuating the slope of the main armour. Mine slopes outwards a little which annoys me.

BTW you can see in the red oxide picture the places where I have put filler to mask the c/sink rivets. I think the original thin skin was augmented in strength by it being folded over by about 1cm. But with a thicker material I think it is justifiable to side step this detail.

You may well find that the angled support strips welded to the armour have 'Mary Rosed' themselves in that some may be too far gone & some although could be treated & preserved has undulated. It might make the locker engineering cleaner in application & geometry if you grind that off & replace it with new material.

[FV1611A]

Originally Posted by fv1620

Wayne that's a nice clean diagram. Points you may be aware of, but worth mentioning:

The top 'horizontal' lid slopes down to the outer main wall. Although the slope is more pronounced on the FV1609. So the outer wall has to be made shorter than corresponding shadow it casts on the Pig itself.

The long upper side lid when it folds down reveals not a matching rectangular space but a space that at each end is bordered by rounded upward extensions of the main outer wall.

You'll need to be very careful with the lower sloped panel ensuring it is true in perpetuating the slope of the main armour. Mine slopes outwards a little which annoys me.

BTW you can see in the red oxide picture the places where I have put filler to mask the c/sink rivets. I think the original thin skin was augmented in strength by it being folded over by about 1cm. But with a thicker material I think it is justifiable to side step this detail.

You may well find that the angled support strips welded to the armour have 'Mary Rosed' themselves in that some may be too far gone & some although could be treated & preserved has undulated. It might make the locker engineering cleaner in application & geometry if you grind that off & replace it with new material.

I must confess that I was expecting to grind off existing angle edges and treat as a new blank background for the new panels that will simplify things somewhat. Really is determined by the fact that they are ast he 'Mary Rose' as you say.

I have noticed that the top locker slopes outwards and that the rear line mimics the rear slope of the rear doors etc. I note that the rear end also lines through with the bottom of the body sides, which some restorations have missed looking at FV1711's on Google.

When I measure up to create more details I will indeed show end elevations to both ends etc.

[FV1611A]

Originally Posted by fv1620

The long upper side lid when it folds down reveals not a matching rectangular space but a space that at each end is bordered by rounded upward extensions of the main outer wall.

Agreed! I believe that this is what you describe above?

[chrisgrove]

I do hope that everyone notices that this will be an RUC pig, not an Army one, as the army ones had side lockers that reached to the front of the rear wheel arches, not just to the top of them. Sorry, not an expert on the FV numbers.

The thread just below on Northern Ireland vehicles provides more detail.

Chris

[FV1611A]

Originally Posted by Alex Blair

Maybe I'm blind or stupid but what the hell is "Material 1.6MM" right at the top of the drawing..??

Thanks Alex for reminding me that I am blonde again.....

You are quite right to state that it is on there and I missed it.......

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by FV1611A

Thanks Alex for reminding me that I am blonde again.....

You are quite right to state that it is on there and I missed it.......

Thanks for the confirmation that I am still wandering around in the vertical..
Keep up the good work on the rebuild..

[FV1611A]

Originally Posted by fv1620

Wayne here is the drawing made for cutting the main side. Obviously different for a FV1609 from a FV1611. As you will appreciate it is difficult take measurements for something that is in thin air. The net result was errors of an inch or so as something wasn't right with the angles, giving a deficiency one end & surplus the other



The result was to build the frame & feel happy with that then to cover it & cut it down to shape. Without the skill or equipment to spot-weld & I had no MIG at the time, I cheated by fixing the outer sheet to the wheel arch with countersunk rivets which were eventually smoothed over with filler. I just didn't want to risk melting through or buckling the thin sheet.



Given my propensity for reversing the Pig into various obstructions, the lockers on a frame have proved more durable & easier to repair than a more authentic series of flimsy sheets held together with spot-welds.

Yes various bits of CES & other kit could go in the lockers, no specific space allocations. Unless you keep it under cover from the rain there isn't too much you would want to store in there given the points of entry for water & worse on yours as you have another hinge.

Incidentally the picture of it in red oxide, the top lockers hasps were just from B&Q & are surprisingly close to what was originally fitted. The small side locker is original with its original hasp that is far enough away to pass as being the same. The crudely welded domestic hinges have been criticised, but as you realise when you look at yours these are entirely original fittings that were on the NOS lids I was lucky enough to have.

The bits I had were mainly front wing under locker support pieces & I think perhaps part of the locker internals. There was the top side hinged piece & I think in Reading the main side wall that it attaches to over the wheel arch.

PS You will see my comment to the metal cutter to make the cuts a bit wide in case the geometry was wrong! This proved very worthwhile, even so I was still short along one edge but by tilting it I was able to get full coverage for trimming down. On reflection I should have just order a more basic shape to give me plenty of spare to play with. All I wanted was to have sheets that were of a manageable size that could be fixed to the frame to give support & enhance the quality of cut. Having rigid support like this it was quite easy to cut it into shape with those very thin angle grinder discs.

Clive I am guessing that your front lockers were intact and that the same attention was not required and therefore none of your informative photos available?

[FV1611A]

As can be seen the front wings/ lockers are badly perished and the rear off side locker/ locker arrangement is of a similar end.

I would imagine the hardest part will be the front lockers/ arrangements to replicate?

[fv1620]

Wayne, my wings although a bit buckled & rusted in corners were remarkably good. I replaced the locker lids which were a bit dented. The NOS replacements were of a later type. The discerning eye can identify that because on the hasp hinge the ratio of hasp width in the hinge itself to locker portion of the hinge changed making it less likely to fracture at the hinge. But with practice you can spot the difference.

The main portion of the wing should be easier to fabricate than the lockers. What you have to watch is that the locker hole has an everted lip to reduce water ingress. Never likely to be entirely successful in that the locker has a drain hole.

The main underneath ribbing for the wing is provided by two U channels spot welded on. On the Mk 1 it is cruciform & you will usually see this pattern from hollowing on the top where people have stood on the wings. Mk 2 had the same up to the point that a replacement was needed, with no locker it is a slightly thicker material & the two channels run parallel. You can see this on the left of the third picture.

The gubbins pieces supporting the lockers are a nightmare, but there are some usable/patterns here.

[FV1611A]

More great pictures and thank you. I must confess I hade no idea how much hard work you had done to FV1609.

I have seen the X reinforcement under the wing on the air intake side as it is intact and I have rested on it peering into the engine bay before. The nearside one is Kerry Packered I must admit! I have seen the stepped edge on the locker lids and wonder from your description if this coincides with a slight projection to the liner insert that is the locker bin itself so that the lid 'nests' over the upstand to prevent weather ingress?

I have highlighted what can just about be seen to be an upstand where the arrow is pointing?? But I am speculating.

[fv1620]

Yes the everted edges of the locker orifice mate with the raised lid profile. This what you have identified.

Classic car body restoration suppliers have a range of hand operated bending gadgets which might do the fancy bits. For simple bends I have one of these. With care you can do a long run or dismantle for small pieces as it comprises 3 pieces of unequal lengths. Looks better than the vice marked metal on one piece & a "hammered effect" on the other!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/150mm-SHEET-ME...item2c592c4d93

[FV1611A]

Thats a clever little impro for a bench vice! The only limitation would be sections only 150mm wide / long. Another option could be a small gauge angle profile that can be tack welded underneath as the angles can be purchased a small as 12x12mm or even 10x10mm / 3/8"x3/8".

I will end up doing some simple fabrication drawings as a master to fabricate from so will share these with you once they are done!

Regards

Wayne

[FV1611A]

Originally Posted by fv1620

Wayne here is the drawing made for cutting the main side. Obviously different for a FV1609 from a FV1611. As you will appreciate it is difficult take measurements for something that is in thin air. The net result was errors of an inch or so as something wasn't right with the angles, giving a deficiency one end & surplus the other



The result was to build the frame & feel happy with that then to cover it & cut it down to shape. Without the skill or equipment to spot-weld & I had no MIG at the time, I cheated by fixing the outer sheet to the wheel arch with countersunk rivets which were eventually smoothed over with filler. I just didn't want to risk melting through or buckling the thin sheet.



Given my propensity for reversing the Pig into various obstructions, the lockers on a frame have proved more durable & easier to repair than a more authentic series of flimsy sheets held together with spot-welds.

Yes various bits of CES & other kit could go in the lockers, no specific space allocations. Unless you keep it under cover from the rain there isn't too much you would want to store in there given the points of entry for water & worse on yours as you have another hinge.

Incidentally the picture of it in red oxide, the top lockers hasps were just from B&Q & are surprisingly close to what was originally fitted. The small side locker is original with its original hasp that is far enough away to pass as being the same. The crudely welded domestic hinges have been criticised, but as you realise when you look at yours these are entirely original fittings that were on the NOS lids I was lucky enough to have.

The bits I had were mainly front wing under locker support pieces & I think perhaps part of the locker internals. There was the top side hinged piece & I think in Reading the main side wall that it attaches to over the wheel arch.

PS You will see my comment to the metal cutter to make the cuts a bit wide in case the geometry was wrong! This proved very worthwhile, even so I was still short along one edge but by tilting it I was able to get full coverage for trimming down. On reflection I should have just order a more basic shape to give me plenty of spare to play with. All I wanted was to have sheets that were of a manageable size that could be fixed to the frame to give support & enhance the quality of cut. Having rigid support like this it was quite easy to cut it into shape with those very thin angle grinder discs.

Clive in the afore images did you attach the angle to the top of the wheelarch or did you attach the wheelarch to the frame with plug welds?? The wheelarch profiles are made from quite flimpsy gauge steel as I have a pair of NOS.

Thanks in advance

[fv1620]

Don't look at the welding bodges!