Mystery Lynx

Mike Baker · #1 16-12-11, 09:30

Two days ago I saw what I am 99% sure were two Lynx armoured recce vehicles on a flatbed in Colwood, BC (a suburb of Victoria). I got stuck at a red light and didn't see exactly where they went, but I last saw them headed in the direction of the base. Anybody have any idea why two retired APCs would be transported towards a Navy base on an island which doesn't have a single armoured unit?

Mike

rob love · #2 16-12-11, 13:57

Can't say about the Lynx, but I have heard the surplus M113s are all heading out that way to be scrapped. There is a discussion on it over at gun nuts.
I have seen batches of them heading down the TransCanada on flatbeds. Everything from UN white examples to some fairly pristine upgraded examples. I guess the international sales hoped for on these did not materialize.

RHClarke · #3 16-12-11, 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love

Can't say about the Lynx, but I have heard the surplus M113s are all heading out that way to be scrapped. There is a discussion on it over at gun nuts.
I have seen batches of them heading down the TransCanada on flatbeds. Everything from UN white examples to some fairly pristine upgraded examples. I guess the international sales hoped for on these did not materialize.

Or maybe ITAR and Controlled Goods legislation had their way...

rob love · #4 16-12-11, 19:09

Certainly those programs have limited the sales to some countries, and to civilians. But the push these days is really onto wheeled vehicles with high speed. No country is lining up for 40 year old armoured personal carriers that are in need of major upgrade. Some discussions I have read show that a few of the countries that might want them, don't have the cash to maintain them, much less upgrade them to todays standards.

We had the TLAVs (M113 upgraded) with the Soucy rubber tracks overseas. They seemed to perform quite well overall. But one must realize that the hulls are stripped bare, cut up, extensions added, new powerpacks added, and a host of other additions not for posting on the internet. So to some country that is worried that they cannot afford the $20K expense to replace the track every 8.000 miles, upgrades are a pipe dream.

Not sure why the hulks have to be transported all the way to BC for disposal.......raw metal going to China perhaps?

DanJahn · #5 17-12-11, 05:05

Hello group.

We at the Canadian Military Education Centre and Museum in Chilliwack, B.C. have also heard of APC's heading for Victoria to be scrapped.

Dan

Lynn Eades · #6 17-12-11, 05:51

James Swan won the disposal tender for about 50 of them in New Zealand. Big Brother stopped closure and they re appeared, (probably)as some variation of these.

Mike Baker · #7 17-12-11, 08:59

I thought they were Lynx because they appeared to have a small turret on top. Too bad if they're going to be cut up, because they looked like they had been very well maintained.

And I echo the question of why they would be brought here for scrapping - BC Ferries charges me a small fortune to take my F-150 across the Strait of Georgia, so I can only imagine what it costs to send an 18-wheeler across with two armoured vehicles on the back. Surely it would be cheaper to scrap them near where they were based?

Mike

chris vickery · #8 17-12-11, 14:17

I am wondering if these are the same two I saw headed North on Hwy 11 Trans Canada earlier in the week? If so, they at least came from or through Ontario.
I wonder how a certain someone here on MLU ended up with one of these in his collection....recently.

Harry Moon · #9 18-12-11, 04:31

I've seen one or two trailers of them at a truck stop in Chilliwack and yes indeed they are going to a scrapper in Victoria that won the bid to scrap them....

jason meade · #10 19-12-11, 00:22

All the ones I posted pictures of here a few months ago have went out west to be disposed of...Now with all this controled goods crap thats comig down..sounds like that could be the end of armour even for us DND museums.

Jason

Hans Mulder · #11 20-12-11, 18:21

There are a few available to regiments as monuments...the Westies are to recieve two TOW M113s. A couple of the engineering variants are also parked at the ASU, probably waiting deactivation before placement at the CME armouries. I have noticed about 12 M113s, mostly standard configuration, but also a couple TOWs, headed west on semis on the #1 through Hope and Chilliwack.

Who is the scrapper in Victoria? What are the chances that hulls, tracks, or engines might become available?

rob love · #12 20-12-11, 18:49

The location of the scrapper is given as: "A scrap dealer on the Island has the contract to scrap them. Go north on Burnside, right on Prospect Lake Rd, and left on Munn Road. It's about a mile down on the right side." A google check shows this likely to be Williams scrap iron and metals.

Hard to say if the scrapper is allowed to sell parts or not. It will likely be in his contract that the parts are controlled and must be either sold to persons with DCG approval or else mutilated beyond use.

DanJahn · #13 20-12-11, 19:27

Hello group.

From what I was told someone that followed one of the semi's to the scrap yard was told they are not allowed to sell any parts.

That scrap yard must have been very agresive in their bid.

Dan

Canadian Military Education Centre and Museum

www.cmedcentre.ca

Stan Leschert · #14 21-12-11, 07:58

I was told that some are headed to Work Point as part of the Peace Keeper training school.

Some things are happening in the background, but you can rest assured that these will not reach private hands.
I've seen 25 of them board the boat, heading to the Island.
Somewhere on my cell phone, I have a couple of bad pics of the carriers waiting for a boat trip...

All of the carriers that I have seen no longer sport Canada plates,
and have ink pen markings on them, so melt down would be the likely conclusion.

BTW, Right now all available DND contract haulers are heading to the Mid West, with the vehicles of 39 Brigade.

I'll see if I can get some pics ... that's if they get released to me!

Casey B · #15 24-12-11, 03:28

Yes sadly My nephew works at Columbia Remtec in Surrey and the truck with two of them stopped there to drop off aluminun Stock for their shop. Those are the ones heading to the Island to be scrapped as the truck driver said. they were driven on the truck flat low bed. Nephew has pics in his phone of them and they were out of Quebec...Yes the last two were pristine and had recent camo colours!
Thanks Mister Harper!

RHClarke · #16 24-12-11, 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey B

Yes sadly My nephew works at Columbia Remtec in Surrey and the truck with two of them stopped there to drop off aluminun Stock for their shop. Those are the ones heading to the Island to be scrapped as the truck driver said. they were driven on the truck flat low bed. Nephew has pics in his phone of them and they were out of Quebec...Yes the last two were pristine and had recent camo colours!
Thanks Mister Harper!

Being somewhat familiar with the military equipment acquisition and disposal programs, I have yet to hear of any PM in the past 12 years walking through military bases choosing what would stay and what would go. That is left up to the doctrine writers, environmental commanders and the program/project staffs. Budgetary constraints can and do lead to cuts to some programs, but better to axe the old (even though it still works - somewhat) than curtail the new.

Speaking as one of the Trudeau/Chretien era warriors, the present PM and his Cabinet deserve a pat on the back for kitting out our military with new kit that led to the successes experienced in Afghanistan. So I do agree with you (somewhat) - Thanks, Mr. Harper!

Marc Montgomery · #17 07-01-12, 14:56

it does seem such a shame however that "obsolete" Canadian mil vehicles these days will not end up in Canadian collectors hands for preservation.

The govt for example (a trend- not to blame any particular govt) is to be very worried about armour getting into private hands..remember how they freaked when the ferret went up onto the HILL. I have a photo of my 3-ton parked in front of centre block...drove right up took a pic...well that sure couldn't happen now.

It doesn't help with the recent (past decade or so) fearmongering over firearms with the spillover from so-called military "assault' rifles...by extension -anything-military in private hands is a tad suspect in the public's eyes.

It does seem a bit strange that we cant preserve examples of our own military history, but we can import and own stuff from the Soviet era...go figure..

I think owning an OT-65 would be kinda cool for example or a BRDM2..

jason meade · #18 07-01-12, 17:42

Marc...Just to let you know tha there are examples in collections, In the last 2 years i have picked up just about one example of everything armour related, with the exception of the leos and m-109, The 109 I will be working on when my leave is up, While i admit that private collectors will not have a chance at them unless they sorce them from another country...But as it stands right now I have 76 vechs in our collection, Most dating from the 50,s up to present day...Most are in class s condition when they have arrived in the last few years.
Jason

Dave Jackson · #19 29-01-12, 01:58

I can confirm that there are about 30 of them stacked three high in the scrap yard on Munns Road outside Victoria. Went there yesterday. I explained to the guy that I am restoring a military vehicle and wanted to look for parts. Was told this is not posible and anything that comes off them would have to be destroyed. I wasn't even allowed to go up and have a look.

I did look inside a couple of them when they were on a flat bed ouside Sidney. They were in good condition and very complete. Looked like they had not been used for a while but would not take much to get going. Anything loose inside had been removed so wasn't able to score any loose bits.

Casey B · #20 29-01-12, 02:34

Imagine the cost to ship then two at a time via latbed trucks all the way accross Canada from montreal to Victoria to scrap them.
Use a train system? Noooo wouldn't want them to beb seen all at once would we?
What pray tell did that cost the taxpayers and could not the cost of this be offset by selling some of the parts?

RHClarke · #21 29-01-12, 03:51

Do you think that the feelings of a few (and we are a rare lot in Canada) restorers outweighs the consequences of annoying our economically and militarily stronger neighbour, who by legislation (theirs mostly) owns the distribution and end user rights for the kit that is being destroyed? Hypothetically, the cost of not destroying them properly could be measured in sanctions that could affect our economy.

Yes, it is a shame that individuals are not permitted to play with these surplus armoured vehicles. However, our military heritage is being preserved through the Canadian War Museum. Hopefully they can squeeze a few more armoured and other vehicles into the bunker as they reach the end of their life cycles.

Now if you really want to pick a battle, do some research on the tendering process that led to the APCs being trucked all the way out to the west coast. That will probably be worth some ire.

chris vickery · #22 29-01-12, 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by RHClarke

Yes, it is a shame that individuals are not permitted to play with these surplus armoured vehicles. However, our military heritage is being preserved through the Canadian War Museum.

Rob, I hear what you are saying but as per your quote above, it kinda sounds reminescent of the Liberal gun control initiatives does it not????
Maybe if the CWM is in charge of preserving all our military heritage, then private citizens and restorers should also be licensed or revoked of our rights to be in possession of ex-military vehicles and equipment...

Food for thought.

RHClarke · #23 30-01-12, 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Rob, I hear what you are saying but as per your quote above, it kinda sounds reminescent of the Liberal gun control initiatives does it not???? Maybe if the CWM is in charge of preserving all our military heritage, then private citizens and restorers should also be licensed or revoked of our rights to be in possession of ex-military vehicles and equipment...

Food for thought.

Chris,

The only difference being that the gun control horseshit was a self inflicted wound. The ITAR issue is something we cannot control. We can get rid of part of the gun control problem (and I still hold hope that Mr. Harper and company will follow thru), but there is no way we can get rid of the terms and conditions of the US legislation if we continue to by US military kit.

Your suggestion to license collectors makes me shudder...let's not give the policy wonks here in Ottawa any ideas (PS, I now work in that policy world...).

chris vickery · #24 30-01-12, 01:05

Rob, it was not my intention to suggest that we license collectors; rather it was YOUR wordage with regards to the CWM being Guardians of OUR History...

RHClarke · #25 30-01-12, 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Rob, it was not my intention to suggest that we license collectors; rather it was YOUR wordage with regards to the CWM being Guardians of OUR History...

From a governmental due diligence point of view, yup! That is what the CWM is supposed to do. If you look at it from a black and white point of view, if the CWM has one of whatever we used in the military in the museum, that does the trick.

I too get emotional over inanimate objects and believe that we should be able to live in a "free" environment, but sometimes one gets organic stuff all over one's rose coloured glasses.

In this case, the world's most powerful nation is calling the shots, and we as ordinary Canucks have no recourse. Perhaps if a former government of Canada had played by the rules in the past, we wouldn't be in this pickle.

BTW, having logged more miles in M113s than I wish to remember, I won't miss them. Others will, but lamenting the effects of iron-clad legislation will only result in making the Guinness dissappear faster.

Alternatives? Howsabout a nice Brit 432? They almost smell the same on the inside...

Gordon Yeo · #26 30-01-12, 02:12

Rob has a good point, the U.K. and Europe are awash in surplus military equipment that can be had by throwing money at it. If people really want armour they could buy some and we wouldn't have to listen this constant angst about what we can't have.

chris vickery · #27 30-01-12, 02:47

OK, so we agree to move on... Has the collector community at large come to realise that what mvs we do have in private hands are now going up in value?
Case in point; over the years the collector market has had a constant influx of vehs to satisfy our hunger. Take any WW2 milsurp right up to the Iltis. It seems now that many of the "less desirable" mvs will surely find fashion once guys wake up and find that getting into the hobby will be increasingly more difficult. I would hazard a guess to say it is just a matter of time before the bureaucrats decide to tighten things up with regard to imports....

Perry Kitson · #28 31-01-12, 00:43

I think the point that is being overlooked here is that these same vehicles (M113's, M113 C&R, aka Lynx) are in the hands of private individuals and non govermental museums in the US now. Even the US government is not as stringent as ours when it comes to military vehicles in private hands.

Perry

Gordon Yeo · #29 31-01-12, 02:45

Quit right Perry, there is a M113 for sale on armyjeepsnet/armour site, at the very affordable price of 137,000 US$. Makes a FV432 or BPM-1 look affordable and no worries about spares, since all the scraped M113 parts are not for public consumption.

RHClarke · #30 31-01-12, 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perry Kitson

I think the point that is being overlooked here is that these same vehicles (M113's, M113 C&R, aka Lynx) are in the hands of private individuals and non govermental museums in the US now. Even the US government is not as stringent as ours when it comes to military vehicles in private hands.
Perry

US vehicles in the US are a horse of different colour. The 113 family has been around since the early '60s, so some were bound to be "collected" well before ITAR and other unilateral treaties. The US is probably confident that its law enforcement and military might will keep the peace at home. It is another story abroad. So how do you reduce the risk of blasé foreign governments selling off US kit to US belligerents? Making proper disposal a mandatory requirement in all foreign military sales works well.

Not good news for those of us afflicted with the OD collector's bug, but a good management plan by our US brethren.

Now our Russian friends are less worried about this issue - I am sure you can find proof of that.