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  #1  
Old 16-11-19, 01:54
Dennis Cardy Dennis Cardy is offline
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Default Centurion Arrives in BC

[B] The local papers gave a lot of space to the arrival of an Korean War tank.
And I quote...."Aldergrove is now home to the last surviving Centurion tank with proven combat experience in the Korean War."

“Tina the tank,” as coined by a CN Rail employee, lived on the opposite coast at Nova Scotia’s Cornwallis Military Museum from 1988 until its recent closure in 2019, due to a lack of volunteers.

On Oct. 30, the nearly 50-ton tank was loaded onto a CN Railway car in Dartmouth, N.S."

After the cross Canada journey...it arrived at local CN Yards a few days ago.
Then parked in front of the Aldergrove Legion for Nov11 ceremonies.

Did not see a CFR. Anybody know..?
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  #2  
Old 16-11-19, 02:20
Dennis Cardy Dennis Cardy is offline
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Default Aldergrove Centurion

The Aldergrove Star published this "exclusive photograph".
One the left.. Bob Long of Langley Council.
Centre...Joslyn Young from CN
Right.....Major (CF) Ian Newby.

As a side note, maj. Newby supplied all the Uniforms, weapons, and military vehicles for the very first Rambo movie.
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  #3  
Old 16-11-19, 04:04
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Centurion Mk 5

OK, I will bite, what is the proof that this particular Centurion had combat experience in Korea?
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  #4  
Old 16-11-19, 04:17
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Centurion Tank

I just read the online news reports for this tank and someone really needs to get their facts straight. Both the Aldergrove Star and CTV are misreporting that this is last surviving tank with combat experience from the Korean War - which it is not. Also please note that the articles imply that Canada used Centurion tanks in Korea, which we did not.

It is nice that the tank has been shipped from one end of the country to the other but all the bluster, fanfare and chest pounding has resulted in the facts behind this AFV being misreported to the public. Please, now is the time to correct the errors before they become ingrained into the public lore.
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  #5  
Old 16-11-19, 06:00
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Oh that Newby...what a scamp!
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  #6  
Old 16-11-19, 06:12
rob love rob love is offline
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I had a look on Shelldrakes list of Nova Scotia monuments, and by blowing up the photo of what I believe to be this tank, the CFR appears to be 52-81190
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Last edited by rob love; 20-11-19 at 13:53.
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  #7  
Old 16-11-19, 13:11
James P James P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
I just read the online news reports for this tank and someone really needs to get their facts straight. Both the Aldergrove Star and CTV are misreporting that this is last surviving tank with combat experience from the Korean War - which it is not. Also please note that the articles imply that Canada used Centurion tanks in Korea, which we did not.

It is nice that the tank has been shipped from one end of the country to the other but all the bluster, fanfare and chest pounding has resulted in the facts behind this AFV being misreported to the public. Please, now is the time to correct the errors before they become ingrained into the public lore.
Seems the media just running with what they are told and the yarn spun about the tank, as they say if you are going to tell a story about bears.........have LOTS of bears in it.
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  #8  
Old 16-11-19, 14:25
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Dan Martel Dan Martel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
I had a look on Shelldrakes list of Nova Scotia monuments, and by blowing up the photo of what I believe to be this tank, the CFR appears to be 52-81190
According to ramtank.ca there was no CFR 52-81190 but there was 52-81090 which I think that CFR actually is. The tank was a part of the second group of Centurions purchased all of which were sent to Canada.

Did anyone ever get a photograph of the actual vehicle?

Cheers,
Dan.
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  #9  
Old 16-11-19, 16:37
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Centurion CFRs

Much like media and enthusiast reports, the trouble with CFRs painted on gate guardian vehicles is you can never be too sure about their accuracy. Perhaps the vehicle still has its brass data plate mounted on the inside of the hull as this will have both the CFR and the British WD number.
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  #10  
Old 16-11-19, 17:12
rob love rob love is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Martel View Post
According to ramtank.ca there was no CFR 52-81190 but there was 52-81090 which I think that CFR actually is. The tank was a part of the second group of Centurions purchased all of which were sent to Canada.

Did anyone ever get a photograph of the actual vehicle?

Cheers,
Dan.
There is a fair gap between the two "ones" in the CFR, but the second one does not have the oval shape of the other zero on the photo. But it may well be what Ed says, that somebody interpreted the numbers incorrectly and applied them.



Did they stamp the CFRs on the hulls of the Centurions like they did to the ferrets or the M series vehicles? I can't check because the only centurions near me are the swiss cheese examples that are on the ranges.



The news story mentioned that this tank was dropped at the legion in time for remembrance day. Is that it's permanent location or is it heading elsewhere?
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  #11  
Old 16-11-19, 18:32
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Dan Martel Dan Martel is offline
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Interesting armoured formation tactical sign on the skirt. The circle represents the third or 'C' squadron of a regiment. During the 70's and before the arrival of the Leopards, the armoured squadron at Gagetown was 'C' 8 CH. I wonder if that's where this tank came from?

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  #12  
Old 16-11-19, 21:04
Harry Moon Harry Moon is offline
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Default Abbotsford Centurian

While i don't know the pre range target history of this other than it is a mark that the British used. This centurian was pulled off of a range in Alberta in the late 70's by Vic Stephenson with 15th Field. They got it running but they stored it at the Seaforth's armoury on Burrard street. Unbeknown to vic and 15th field, the seaforths arranged something and in a trade it was sent to Cornwallis to be a gate guardian. Created quite a stir when it was discovered it had already been shipped out by rail. Cornwallis closed it stayed with a museum then got parcelled out to storage. It came up for availability a while ago and its to their credit they got CN to make an event of moving it here. After a cosmetic preparation it will be placed on an already prepared pad at the Aldergrove war Memorial on Fraser Highway.
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  #13  
Old 16-11-19, 23:31
Perry Kitson Perry Kitson is offline
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Here is a photo of the Centurion in question, with ROF serial numbers. I photographed this tank two years ago while visiting the former CFB Cornwallis, where it has sat for some time until now. There was a plaque attached to the left rear side skirt, if still there, it may state when this tank was "placed" at Cornwallis.
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Last edited by Perry Kitson; 16-11-19 at 23:37.
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  #14  
Old 17-11-19, 02:20
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Centurion CFRs

I have been looking over my list of Canadian CFRs and there was a Centurion Mk 5 53-81190 but I do not have its' particular WD No. The joy with CFRs is that even though the system is set up with the first two digits being the year and the last five being unique to a particular vehicle, I have not yet in over a decade of study seen the last five numbers being used twice at the same time. So for example I have not encountered say 52-81190 and a 53-81190 being used at the same time. Generally what happens is once a CFR is discontinued then the last five can then be reissued to another vehicle with a different year and I have seen this occur with quite a few of the older CFRs, such as those to the M37CDNs, which were reissued to newer model vehicles. Unfortunately once the number is reissued the data for the older vehicle is not retained which makes study and recording very difficult.

In the case of British manufactured AFVs, like the Ferret and the Centurion, Canada recorded the War Department Number as a form of serial number. The WD number consisted of two numbers/two letters/two numbers and I must admit am not sure how the British allocation worked for particular vehicle types although I do know that WD No. is used on the licence plates of British military vehicles. As I stated in an earlier post, the WD No. along with the CFR was stamped into a brass plaque which was mounted inside the hull of the AFV. Perhaps like the Ferret the CFR was also stamped somewhere on the hull.

My records correlating Centurion CFRs to WD Nos is very much a patchwork with more holes then patches but I can report that the nearest Centurion to 53-81190 in which I have most of the data; Centurion Mk 5 53-81185 was listed with a WD No. as 16 BA 14. Of course just to make the whole process more challenging, where I do have a consecutive series of CFRs with corresponding WD Nos., the WD Nos. are out of sequence.
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  #15  
Old 17-11-19, 20:25
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Dan Martel Dan Martel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perry Kitson View Post
Here is a photo of the Centurion in question, with ROF serial numbers.
I posted this tank's ROF serial number on another site to see if anyone might have been able to provide a rundown of its service history. While no one has, I was referred to the Tank Museum at Bovington. For a small fee it appears they will provide a vehicle history card for those who request it. The request page can be found here.

Anyone with a little spare cash will be able to see if the tank went to Korea or not, assuming it's the same tank.

Cheers,
Dan.
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  #16  
Old 20-11-19, 06:07
Aide Memoire Aide Memoire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Martel View Post
I posted this tank's ROF serial number on another site to (...) I was referred to the Tank Museum at Bovington. For a small fee it appears they will provide a vehicle history card for those who request it.
Yes, once I see if there's any proper data plate inside this thing I'll be talking to Bovington...but I didn't have that link, so cheers.

The source of the Korea-thing initially was a communication from Borden to Cornwallis which reads:

“They [Borden] have researched the history and that particular Centurion was the only one [currently in Canada that was] in Korea”

That became a sound bite fragment which got picked up by one press outlet and reinterpreted into "the last Centurion in Canada" - which other press folks just quoted and ran with. Had we known in advance that the copy was going to read like that we would've corrected it before it spread, but it didn't work out that way, and once things get out into the media they take on a life of their own. No surprises there to any of us who've been interviewed and misquoted or quoted out of context before, or quoted in a jenga-like puzzle of reordered sound bites.

The 'stolen valour'/ hitching-a-ride thing from someone up there aways...really? Despite the fact CN's community spirit and generosity got it transported across the country - and Brent and Carrie Hill from Lumpy's Lowbed got it to our local Legion for Remembrance Day...there were still huge costs involved in craneloading at Cornwallis - transporting it to the railhead - craning it on to the flatcar...all of which was borne by Mr. Newby so at least *some* vets and other folks *West* of the Rockies would have a chance to see an example of something they'd otherwise have to book WestJet for. I don't really see a downside to that - but I notice throughout this thread that some folks are grasping for one regardless.

It's a lot easier just to ask the people involved some basic questions vs. some of the stuff in this thread, but...with some folks there seems to be this compulsion to get political over everything and take the Low Road. Not really sure who that serves. Certainly not the museum community. Certainly not the collector community. And certainly not the public.

Andy Hill
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  #17  
Old 20-11-19, 11:22
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Korean War Centurion

I'd be really curious to see the chain of documentary evidence which traces 53-81190 back to service use in Korea. It would be a stunning revelation IF such documentation actually existed - I hope it does, but I am not holding my breath.
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  #18  
Old 20-11-19, 18:17
Aide Memoire Aide Memoire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
I'd be really curious to see the chain of documentary evidence which traces 53-81190 back to service use in Korea. It would be a stunning revelation IF such documentation actually existed - I hope it does, but I am not holding my breath.
Again...without knowing what Borden found or how they found it...this is all we have.

Opening the hatches today for a look inside for a data plate. If that doesn't work I'll see if Bovington can work with the ROF number alone. Either way when they get back to me...I will get back to MLU.
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  #19  
Old 21-11-19, 15:20
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Centurion Tank

Why not first check with the Base Borden museum to see what they have?
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  #20  
Old 21-11-19, 19:04
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Our military vehicle community in BC is a bit splintered to say the least, most of the groups seem to harbor more than a little animosity for the others, and some of our more colorful characters are known Canada wide. Andy has a good point that when Newby is involved people always assume the worst, but I think everyone would have to admit, even Ian's camp that he has brought a great deal of this on himself over the years, so the reputation he has garnered is not totally undeserved.

Very glad to see the Centurion here...much like tanks in general, you can never have enough Centurions

John
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  #21  
Old 22-11-19, 04:34
Aide Memoire Aide Memoire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
Why not first check with the Base Borden museum to see what they have?
Yes. On that too. Didn't have a POC there until just this a.m.

I've sent info off to Bovington to see what they come up with, but sadly there aren't any data plates left inside (getting the partially ajar driver's hatch open enough to crawl about inside required the help of the M816 wrecker - despite lots of heat and penetrating oil.)

Anyone know if the CFR would be stamped somewhere on the hull or turret the way we did with other things like M37s etc.?

Last edited by Aide Memoire; 22-11-19 at 04:39.
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  #22  
Old 22-11-19, 04:38
Aide Memoire Aide Memoire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Martel View Post
Interesting armoured formation tactical sign on the skirt. The circle represents the third or 'C' squadron of a regiment. During the 70's and before the arrival of the Leopards, the armoured squadron at Gagetown was 'C' 8 CH. I wonder if that's where this tank came from?

Anecdotally...Gagetown apparently had it before Cornwallis got it, which might explain that. Subject to confirmation.
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  #23  
Old 22-11-19, 05:22
Aide Memoire Aide Memoire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmcm View Post
Our military vehicle community in BC is a bit splintered to say the least, most of the groups seem to harbor more than a little animosity for the others, and some of our more colorful characters are known Canada wide. Andy has a good point that when Newby is involved people always assume the worst, but I think everyone would have to admit, even Ian's camp that he has brought a great deal of this on himself over the years, so the reputation he has garnered is not totally undeserved.

Very glad to see the Centurion here...much like tanks in general, you can never have enough Centurions

John
Hmm. Ian supplied all the permits, fuel and HEMTT, Ferret etc. we took out to your show, John Though we were there as part of Western Command of course. Hope to next year as well. That was a really good event.

With the rest of stuff...personality clashes, ambitions, competition, one-upmanship, status hounds, people wanting to be biggest/ best/ first or whatever -- not my thing at all. I'm in it for the exact same reasons I was as a 9 yr. old. It's just now the toys are bigger, the sandbox is bigger, and there are more kids to share with. Anything off-mission from that I have zero interest in and when I get my way - zero part in.
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  #24  
Old 22-11-19, 06:03
Aide Memoire Aide Memoire is offline
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http://armedforcesmuseum.ca/centurion-interior/

I got inside through the driver's hatch. The canvas blind that separates the driver's compartment from the fighting compartment was still there. Someone had disconnected all of the 20 or so Larkspur-type cables from the 'Junction and Control Unit' box, unbolted it from its home beneath the main gun, and wedged it upright behind the driver's seat to prevent access to the rear. And it weighs about 120 lbs. After some old-fashioned heavy lifting we got it out of the road, and I spent some time photographing inside.

I was playing with different lighting/ flash etc. so some pics are doubles, but you can see the overall inside condition. Main gun has what looks like an intact breech with no barrel demil or plugs - with only the breech block itself removed. Probably a bit hard to see from the pics.

Also might be hard to make out but looking back into the engine compartment shows just how echoingly empty it is

None of the control wiring for everything has been cut - all of it has perfectly legible labels and Larkspur-era connectors in place. A lot of the instrument panel/ breaker panel legends are still legible as well. Pretty cool. Doesn't show in the pics but the underside of the loader's hatch has a couple of samples of the 'Canadian Army Khaki Green' in semi-gloss/ gloss - exactly what I need to reproduce for my M37 at some point.

Apart from the data plates on the main gun and the various components in the pics - there's nothing on the inside of the hull or turret anywhere. Commander's hatch has what looks like a 1953 ROF year stamp on it - but it could've been replaced at some point so that CFR still might be legit.
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Old 23-11-19, 21:56
Aide Memoire Aide Memoire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
I have been looking over my list of Canadian CFRs and there was a Centurion Mk 5 53-81190 but I do not have its' particular WD No. (...) In the case of British manufactured AFVs, like the Ferret and the Centurion, Canada recorded the War Department Number as a form of serial number. The WD number consisted of two numbers/two letters/two numbers and I must admit am not sure how the British allocation worked for particular vehicle types although I do know that WD No. is used on the licence plates of British military vehicles.
http://armedforcesmuseum.ca/british-army-veh-numbering/

Found this years ago when I was trying to work out something regarding a Saladin and put it up on the museum page, as the original source I can't even pull up through archive.org anymore. It gives the various ranges/ years/ vehicle types etc. and does list a bunch of Cents in the "16 BA XX" range but by no means all of them.
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  #26  
Old 24-11-19, 00:27
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Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
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I followed your link to the museum gallery, any way to enable them to enlarge please?
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  #27  
Old 24-11-19, 01:52
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Army Vehicle Registration Numbers

The VRN list answers a number of questions I had with respect to the way in which they were allotted. Thank you for posting it.
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  #28  
Old 26-11-19, 06:47
Aide Memoire Aide Memoire is offline
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I followed your link to the museum gallery, any way to enable them to enlarge please?
Yes, I thought they would post as thumbnails which a click would allow you to see in full resolution but something went haywire. I'll be fixing that.
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  #29  
Old 26-11-19, 06:55
Aide Memoire Aide Memoire is offline
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Bovington got back to me and were very helpful, but unfortunately unless you have the 16 KA 00 style British Army reg. no. you're kind of out of luck as no records were kept by hull number.

They did send me scans of a couple of cards the rest of us might find interesting - and it shows what they have to work with. They're manual file-card type records which have been pencil-erased and rewritten and erased and written again as assignments changed, I imagine - but the reason I asked for them is that *after* Canada had taken delivery of its brand-new orders we got at least a couple of used ones out of British Army inventory in 1963. Unfortunately it doesn't really specify where they went other than "Can Bde" - but interesting I've never heard mention of it until now.

You can check out the cards here:

http://armedforcesmuseum.ca/bovington/

(ps. the "s/o" is British admspeak for "struck off" or "sold on" - and apparently "FARELF" is Far East Land Force - or gear pooled for the Malaysian Emergency, apparently surplused from Hong Kong.)

Last edited by Aide Memoire; 26-11-19 at 07:10. Reason: added 'struck off'
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  #30  
Old 26-11-19, 11:47
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Centurion CFRs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
I have been looking over my list of Canadian CFRs and there was a Centurion Mk 5 53-81190 but I do not have its' particular WD No. The joy with CFRs is that even though the system is set up with the first two digits being the year and the last five being unique to a particular vehicle, I have not yet in over a decade of study seen the last five numbers being used twice at the same time. So for example I have not encountered say 52-81190 and a 53-81190 being used at the same time. Generally what happens is once a CFR is discontinued then the last five can then be reissued to another vehicle with a different year and I have seen this occur with quite a few of the older CFRs, such as those to the M37CDNs, which were reissued to newer model vehicles. Unfortunately once the number is reissued the data for the older vehicle is not retained which makes study and recording very difficult.

In the case of British manufactured AFVs, like the Ferret and the Centurion, Canada recorded the War Department Number as a form of serial number. The WD number consisted of two numbers/two letters/two numbers and I must admit am not sure how the British allocation worked for particular vehicle types although I do know that WD No. is used on the licence plates of British military vehicles. As I stated in an earlier post, the WD No. along with the CFR was stamped into a brass plaque which was mounted inside the hull of the AFV. Perhaps like the Ferret the CFR was also stamped somewhere on the hull.

My records correlating Centurion CFRs to WD Nos is very much a patchwork with more holes then patches but I can report that the nearest Centurion to 53-81190 in which I have most of the data; Centurion Mk 5 53-81185 was listed with a WD No. as 16 BA 14. Of course just to make the whole process more challenging, where I do have a consecutive series of CFRs with corresponding WD Nos., the WD Nos. are out of sequence.
Thank you for posting those two cards although I often wonder if posts get read and understood completely. The quote is from Post 14. Apparently I was not clear enough and you just found out that you require the WD number to trace British vehicles.....
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