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  #1  
Old 03-12-07, 19:20
Shayne Shayne is offline
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Default C8A HUM s/n 3844536691 1944

Original title: CMP Neophyte introduction

My name is Shayne and I live in Abbotsford, BC. I have been interested in owning a CMP for a number of years and have occasionally stalked listers here gleaning what information I could. Other interests and life have gotten in the way but I saw this HUP and decided to give it a shot.
So I purchased my first CMP and I have my work cut out for me. Although I have lurked here I am really still quite ignorant about these but know the basics.
The truck is a 1944 that spent the last 44 years of its life in Dease Lake, British Columbia (near the Yukon). The last time it was registered was in Alberta in 1963. It was rescued from a fate worse than death by a collector in the Lower Mainland who didn't have time for the project.
Enter Shayne.
I picked the truck up yesterday in an unseasonable snowstorm with the seat cover of my pickup clenched between my butt cheeks over the entire 50 km trip home. Well, it wasn't that bad but both sides of one hill that had me questioning my decision making abilities or lack thereof.
In any case here is the information off of the three data plates still with the truck:

Chassis Model: C8A
Cab Model: 13
Chassis Serial: 3844536691
Engine serial: FR3968926
Order Number: LV. 2611
Date of Manufacture: May 15, 1944

Maint Manual: MB-C2
Spare Parts List: C-15A-03

Body: 1C1
Serial: 6443

The doghouse, driver's door, rear door, and roof hatches are missing. The 216 engine is seized but it comes with a 235 good runner. The steering arm between the box and axle is broken.
I don't think some Armor-All and cut polish is going to be quite enough...

I'll try to attach some pictures:

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Ready for the drive...

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Upon arrival at home:

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The driver's side 'hood'. Looks like a green over white shield with a white symbol of some nature.
The passenger side has the remains of a large number two in burgundy... possibly over white but I cannot tell for certain.
The passenger door is marked in white stenciled '81.966'

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1944 MACH-ZL-2
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  #2  
Old 03-12-07, 20:52
Alex Blair (RIP) Alex Blair (RIP) is offline
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Default Nice Pick..

Quote:
Originally posted by Shayne
Upon arrival at home
Hi Shayne..
Welcome aboard the MLU Express..
I have your manuals for you if you need them..

# #3: 300+ pages MB-C2 Maintenance Manual, for GM CMP vehicles. 15 cwt 4x2, 15 cwt. 4x4, 30 cwt 4x4, 3 ton 4x4 HU 4x4, F.A.T. 4x4. Sept. 1943

#3A 300+ pages GM Service Bulletins Updates for MB-C2(May-November 1943).. ***These bulletins were issued to the field maintenance shops for upgrades to the CMP vehicles.. Many proceedures in the bulletins and additions did not make the maintenance manuals..


# #5: 218 pages C8A-04 CHEV. ILLUST. SPARE PARTS LIST FOR HEAVY UTILITY 4x4 C/W PERSONNEL BODY - (INC. C8A-01, C8A-02, C8A-03, & C8A-04) (JUNE '45)

The Service bullitins are well worth the investment as they give all the modifications and field changes that took place and are not in the MB-C2..which was the last maintenance manual and printed in Sept. of '43..
Contact me off line..
You'll have lots of CMP guys helping you on this one..It is a beaut..

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  #3  
Old 03-12-07, 20:54
Phil Waterman Phil Waterman is offline
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Default Welcome to the CMP obsession

Welcome to the CMP obsession


The HUP looks like it is in good restorable shape. Picking up CMPs in the snow is all part of the fun.

Cheers Phil
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  #4  
Old 03-12-07, 22:46
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default

Excellent find, Shayne!

With that snow I think you'll have enough time to do some reading up before the weather clears. In the meantime I'm sure the members here can help with any questions you might have.

Regards,
Hanno
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  #5  
Old 03-12-07, 22:49
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Ledsel Ledsel is offline
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Default shield

The green thingy on the hood was a western command shield
Attached Images
 
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Model U.C. NO-2 MK II.*
SERIAL 25680
HULL 24699. LOWER HULL 24742. ENGINE TL-26707-F.
C.D. 2609.
BUILT MAR. 25, 1944.
CT 266677
Former WASP
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  #6  
Old 03-12-07, 23:11
Brian Gough Brian Gough is offline
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Shane,

Welcome to the world of CMPs .... you are off to a great start with a C8A. I hope you are now relaxed from your 'high pucker factor' ride home with it.

From looking at the panel on the left side at the rear, I think your HUP may be a Mach ZL-2 model. Could you post a picture of the back. Is there a drop down panel opening on the upper left side? I am aware of 4 other C8As built on Contract LV2611 between May 11 and May 15, 1944 and all of them are Mach ZLs.

You could have a very rare model there. Are there any fittings remaining inside the body?

Cheers,

Brian
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  #7  
Old 04-12-07, 00:39
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RHClarke RHClarke is offline
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Default Welcome

Shane,

Welcome to that rare CMP breed of HUP owners. You have a beauty there, and you have an unequalled resource for CMP restoration in MLU - particularly Alex Blair's Manuals.

I see that Phil and Brian have introduced themselves, so you are now in with the very best of the CMP community.

Enjoy the HUP!
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  #8  
Old 04-12-07, 00:49
Shayne Shayne is offline
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Default

Thank you for the warm welcomes.

Ledsel, I had considered the Western Command shield but thought that was introduced in 1976 as a club. What is the complete story on WC?

Snow is now gone... so now it is back to the rainy season which I expect to end sometime around mid November... but I do need to start researching and collecting parts for Spring. If anyone knows of parts specific to the HUP let me know. If I have to I can make all the doors, covers, and hatches but I'd rather collect them to reduce the resto time.

Brian, there is a small door on the left side at the rear and an opening in the rear left currently covered in plywood but nothing on the upper left side. I am attaching two photographs of the rear.

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Interior and the 235.

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  #9  
Old 04-12-07, 01:03
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Ledsel Ledsel is offline
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Default western command

Shayne just google western command and they will give you the hole story. I believe it was Alberta and B.C. and post war it was united with Prarie Command. don't quote me on that as i'm not always right. My carrier has it also.
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Model U.C. NO-2 MK II.*
SERIAL 25680
HULL 24699. LOWER HULL 24742. ENGINE TL-26707-F.
C.D. 2609.
BUILT MAR. 25, 1944.
CT 266677
Former WASP
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  #10  
Old 04-12-07, 03:06
johnnyroad johnnyroad is offline
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Default The Wolverine Express

Shayne - very pleased to see your message as we were wondering what happened to that truck. I can tell you a bit of it's history but not much of substance. It was located at Kutcho Creek mining camp since at least the early 1970's and was only hauled out to Dease in 2005. I just missed seeing it the autumn of 2006 and we heard it went to the lower mainland around that time.
Kutcho camp is about 60 miles east and slightly south of Dease Lake on the south branch of the creek, just south of where Andrea Creek flows into it from the east. If you're interested you can find the Kutcho airstrip on the "Atlin" VFR navigation chart (aeronautical).
I've tried to attach a picture of this vehicle taken around 1974 by Ray Sande, owner/operator of BC Yukon Air Service of Watson Lake (Yukon) and Dease, from the pilot's door of one of our Otters. Unfortunately it's not clear enough to read the red painted script on the rh side but at least one of them reads "Wolverine Express". Due to my marginal computer skills this picture may not show up but if it does you can see that the C8 was being used by Hal Komish at that time to haul freight from the airstrip to his Jade concession.
I flew into Kutcho the summer of 2006 with a friend looking for the truck but we were too late, as the word was that it was taken out by some "hunters" from the lower mainland the year before. A few weeks later my friend (Bruce McNaughton of Dease Lake) spotted the truck in a yard in town but by the time I had driven down from Watson Lake it was gone again.
And now you have it .......... which is great news as we were afraid it would come to grief. In 2006 we were told at Kutcho that the truck was running recently so the engine may only be seized through ring lock. If the oil looks OK (not mixed with antifreeze etc.) it might be wise to remove the plugs and pour in kerosene (Marvel Mystery Oil is better) to try to loosen the pistons up before you condemn it out of hand.
Of the two people in the snapshot, Hal has passed away but his son Barry is somewhere down in southern BC and you may be able to find him through Google, if you'd like to know how it came to be at Kutcho Creek.
Regards,
Dave Hilchie
Cumberland BC and Watson Lake, Yukon
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  #11  
Old 04-12-07, 03:50
Shayne Shayne is offline
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COOL! Excellent info!
Yes, it reads "Wolverine Express" with "call Cry Lake Mobile" underneath and the number "91" on both sides in red. I did a map search for Cry Lake and it is Northeast of Dease Lake.
It was pulled out by George A (I'll leave that anonymous for now) of South Surrey. He has a few of Jeeps 2 M38(?) and a 1942(?)slatgrill, a Pinz, a number of trailers from 1/4 tonne right up to some pretty big single axle rigs. I was under the impression George had some form of tie/right to the vehicle but it sounds like some form inland beachcombing. I really hope some form of permission was granted.

I'll do some research with your info Dave.

I should have moved on the two HUP's for sale on the Island but I knew I was going to have another 'life issue' in late November and promptly put them on indefinite procrastination list.

It still has a 1963 Alberta 'X-Restricted' plate.
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  #12  
Old 04-12-07, 05:01
George McKenzie George McKenzie is offline
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Default CMP HUP

My 1942 Diamond T wrecker has a Western Command Sheild on the left fender .It was around Edmonton AB and the Alaska hiway during the war .I have a 216 CHEV motor If you need it . To loosen a motor from rust PUT HALF & HALF, BRAKE FLUID AND DESIEL FUEL CONDITIONER .Fill the pistons to the top Leave it for a month and you should be able to move the crank . I saw this vehicle in Dease Lake but it was poring rain and very muddy so I never looked at very close at it . It looks very good ,little rust for that wet part of Canada Will look you up next time I'm out your way
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  #13  
Old 04-12-07, 13:44
Brian Gough Brian Gough is offline
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Default

Dave, thanks for posting that info.

Marc Montgomery did your "Wildflower" story on this truck in Convoy #22, Spring 2006. It's nice to have an update and know that one more CMP has now been recovered and will be preserved.

Brian
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  #14  
Old 04-12-07, 14:40
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David_Hayward (RIP) David_Hayward (RIP) is offline
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Default Numbers

These might all be from the same batch:

3844536606
3844536623
3844536668 C.D.L.V. 2611 ENGINE # FR3,969,158 MACH-ZL2 MAY 11 1944
3844536671 C.D.L.V. 2611 ENGINE # FR3,969,368 MACH-ZL2 MAY 11 1944
3844536688 C.D.L.V. 2611 ENGINE # FR3,969,099 MACH-ZL2 MAY 12 1944
3844536691 C.D.L.V. 2611 ENGINE # FR3,96,8926 MACH-ZL2 MAY 15 1944
3844536696 C.D.L.V. 2611 MACH-ZL2 MAY 15 1944

Is there an engine number on the 235? I might be able to tell you which year it is and what vehicle it was out of.
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  #15  
Old 04-12-07, 15:22
Phil Waterman Phil Waterman is offline
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Default Drawings on roof hatch

Shayne


I fabricated a new roof hatch my HUP, which I still need to install, to replace the badly bent one that I've still using after 30 years of fun with my HUP. The roof hatch itself is relatively easy to fabricate, it is all the latch hardware that is hard to come by. So if you find a bent or rusted hatch take a look at the hardware if that is useable grab it.

I'll dig out the drawings of the hatch and post them to my website. If you have not already seen my web site here is the link to the hatch information already posted. http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/Posting.html there are a number of drawings of the hatch hardware also listed on the home page http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/

Cheers Phil
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  #16  
Old 04-12-07, 20:55
johnnyroad johnnyroad is offline
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Default

Shayne - Sorry about the coloured slide. I followed Geoff's posting instructions under "Forum Readme" and while the browser picks up the slide on my hard drive, when I select "Open" it doesn't upload. It just vanishes. Don't know what the problem is as the file size is under the limit.

Yes "Cry Lake Jade" was the name of the outfit but they didn't operate from Cry Lake itself. That part of Northern BC has the world's largest and finest deposits of nephrite jade and there are a dozen or more sites connected by hundreds of miles of cat trails, with varying degrees of accessibility by 4x4. Your C8 probably negotiated a good proportion of them as I see the slide was actually taken at Wolverine strip, which is about ten air miles from Kutcho strip and is on the west branch of the creek that flows out of Letain Lake.

Re title, what we heard, rightly or wrongly, was that the hunters were friends of the gent who held the jade concession in 2006 and as the truck was abandoned on property over which he had jurisdiction, he was able to legally give it to them.

On the way back from Kutcho in 2006 Bruce and I flew over an ex RCAF C60 at the old Boulder gold mine site (about 25 air miles northwest), which I flew in on floats (there's no strip there) to photograph this last summer and managed to play a part in getting it donated to the Comox Air Force Museum, who retrieved it from Dease last month.

It's an ex Comox wartime vehicle, one of the REL radar trucks, and is being restored by them at the present moment. Oddly enough it was also missing the driver's door and doghouse, but the roof hatch is in excellent shape if you need a model, per Phil's email.

I've left it to Rob Roy, the bloke who runs the Museum's ground vehicle restoration team, to report on this project to the Forum as I knew I'd have trouble posting pictures and also he knows a lot more about it at this stage. They have it mostly dismantled already. The tires on that vehicle still have RCAF branded into them. That country is so cold and dry that deterioration is much retarded. Unfortunately Rob is an incredibly busy guy and it may be awhile before he has time to put together a posting.

Rob told me about the Nanaimo Heavy Utilities and I'll try to get down to have a look at them this week as it's only sixty miles away, though Lord knows I don't need any more projects in my life.

Thanks for the comments, Brian - yes that's the same vehicle and we were afraid it would end up butchered. When I first heard about it in the seventies, I knew nothing about CMP's and only heard it referred to as "the old army ambulance". People marvelled at how it could be abandoned winter after winter and still go back into action the next spring with a newly charged battery.

Dave H.
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  #17  
Old 06-12-07, 00:26
Shayne Shayne is offline
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Thanks Dave,
Good to hear the truck is legitimate.

Thanks Phil,
I have gone over your site quite thoroughly over the past! I will certainly use the template if no cover/hatch is to be found.

David,
The engine number on the 235 is XC708117 stamped just behind the disty. The original engine has a plate here and the number is 5269790 which does not match the dash plate at all. Are there numbers located someplace else?
BTW what does MACH-ZL2 signify?

I pulled the plugs on the 216 and #1 and #6 are very corroded while the others are in excellent condition which leads me to believe water entered through the carburetor. If I drained the oil I can only assume water will be the first to exit.

Are there any resources or reasonable sources of parts for these? CMP's in general. I am going to weld the steering arm but a replacement is a better idea. Same for other bits like windshield straps, side window frames, gauges... etc.
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  #18  
Old 06-12-07, 02:29
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chris vickery chris vickery is offline
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Shane, welcome to the world of cmps!

I was a newbie some 10 years ago now and have tinkered with quite a vast array of mvs during this time.

Firstly, some sound advice.. DO NOT, under and circumstances weld the steering arm...

MACH-ZL2 is a machinery lorry, your HUM is rather rare (its not a HUP)

Forget rebuilding the 216 unless you are a total purist. The fact that the engine serial doesn't match the data plates pre-empts this anyhow as it appears to be replacement and non original
The 216 was suceeded by the 235cid engine with full pressure oil system rather than the old splash technology the 216 came with. The 235 is a better motor and appears identical especially if you swap the valve cover and side cover over from the 216 you have.
Be careful to source out a later 235 as some of the early ones were still splash oilers.

All the engine parts are available at most good jobber shops.

Cmp parts are also available, worldwide, depending on what you need. Most of your body parts are easily fabricated if you cannot find original stuff. All the "jewellry" (read trinkets and stuff) are the nice to have things but don't help your project roll down the road. I would suggest a full mechanical assesment followed by whatever rebuilding is needed.

HUP, HUM, HUA, HUW rims are different from regular 16" cmp.

What are you needing as I probably know where you can find it, let me know! (BTW, I had a HUP for a couple years...)
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  #19  
Old 06-12-07, 02:43
Shayne Shayne is offline
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Are you certain mine is a HUM?

edit:

No need for an answer as I found this:
http://www.amv-lilliput.org/modelli/...8A_2/c8a_2.htm
(Translate from Italian using google or bablefish)

It does have the vents and exhaust port for the generator so no further confirmation needed. I did wonder at the excessive amount of wiring in the rear.

Well that makes this much more involved! Tracking down these items may be even more daunting than just CMP stuff!!
In any case to keep it simple I am taking your advice and focussing on those things that will get it mobile and safe then worry about the 'trinkets'. Excellent advice.
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Last edited by Shayne; 06-12-07 at 04:09.
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  #20  
Old 06-12-07, 05:31
Rookie Rookie is offline
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Default CMP neophyte

Your intoduction (neophyte) no doubt got all these MLU guys diving for their dictionaires. As a newbie myself (1941 Chev portee) I have found these gurus invaluable, ask any question they will have an answer

Welcome aboard

Rookie (New Zealand)
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  #21  
Old 06-12-07, 11:28
Brian Gough Brian Gough is offline
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Hi Shayne,

Here is a link to the Canadian Military Remembrance Society website that you might find interesting.

http://www.militaryremembrance.com/c8a.asp

This British Columbia organization has a C8A MACH ZL-1 currently undergoing restoration in Manitoba. It originally came from Williams Lake.

Army Motors #108 (the MVPA publication), Summer 2004, had an article on the history and restoration of this vehicle.

PM also sent to you.


Brian
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  #22  
Old 06-12-07, 11:43
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David_Hayward (RIP) David_Hayward (RIP) is offline
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Default Casting #?

Quote:
XC708117
235s to 1953 were prefixed "T" so far as I knew, and "C" was light commercial 216, "X" heavy 216. The number might be a 1953-54 unit...can you tell me what the casting number is please on the side of the block, and the casting date code nearby? Thjis will be in the form of letter-digit[s]-digit. The casting number might be next to a "GM" such as 5845388.
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  #23  
Old 06-12-07, 19:01
George McKenzie George McKenzie is offline
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Default Engine swap

I have done a swap of a 216 to a 235 for a friend and the problem we had was the 235 is longer .That put the fan too close to the rad ,so we had to move the rad ahead Check this out .Also you might have to get a different bell housing .
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  #24  
Old 06-12-07, 19:49
Shayne Shayne is offline
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I heard there is a modification to the fan or water pump to account for the engine difference but I wasn't 100% certain exactly what the modification was. The 235 comes with a transmission so this *may* negate the need to source/swap the bellhousing.

The casting number on the block of the 235 is: 5843350,

The 216 has no casting number but does have a shop plate in place of the casting number (at least in the same position as the casting number on the 235) so it was rebuilt at least once. This plate is as follows:

Workshop: 204
Date: 27-3-60
Inspected: WSO
Engine Number: 17808
Bore: 0.40
Mains: 0.30
Throws: 0.30

I must say I am overwhelmed with the help as well as the amazing information. I cannot express my gratitude enough.
Thank you.
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  #25  
Old 06-12-07, 20:03
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David_Hayward (RIP) David_Hayward (RIP) is offline
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Default Aha!

The casting # 5843350 is a 1953 235 block, and "XC" is a heavy-duty 235 truck prefix. The number coincides with known 1953 engine numbers.
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  #26  
Old 06-12-07, 21:09
Grant Bowker Grant Bowker is offline
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Default Water pump and bellhousing

An adapter plate is commercially available (Jim Carter, Old Chevy Truck parts) to mount a post 1941 style 216/235 water pump (two holes in the rear cover plate) onto later style 235 (like 261) blocks, the ones with the pump internal to the block instead of externally spanning the block to head joint. This is shorter fore and aft and mounts the fan higher to keep the fan better centered on the radiator.

For the bellhousing, I'm sure that you are remembering that CMPs are right hand drive and that most of the available engines had left hand drive setups. The clutch fork is the difference and although Phil Waterman has converted a LHD bellhousing to RHD your life will be so much easier if you can stay with the original.
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  #27  
Old 06-12-07, 21:22
Shayne Shayne is offline
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I wasn't considering swapping the transmission, just the bellhousing.
Hard to beat a 7.06 first gear ratio!!!
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  #28  
Old 06-12-07, 22:37
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cliff cliff is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shayne
I wasn't considering swapping the transmission, just the bellhousing.
Hard to beat a 7.06 first gear ratio!!!
Just make sure it is a RHD bellhousing and not a LHD as the clutch lever setup is different in most cases.

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Cliff
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  #29  
Old 07-12-07, 03:21
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cletrac (RIP) cletrac (RIP) is offline
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The bellhousing on a 235 is the same bolt pattern as the 216. You have to use the military rhd bellhousing so just bolt it to the 235. Personally, I'm sticking with the 216s in my trucks.
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  #30  
Old 07-12-07, 04:13
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cmperry4 cmperry4 is offline
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Default Congratulations, I think

Nice to see another C8A taken into good hands. Reminds me of another one a-mouldering here in Manitoba with which its possessor will not part.
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