The joys of adjustable lifters

[Lynn Eades]

Back ground;
I have a long term plan to build two carrier engines. I have acquired two sets of adjustable lifters.
One set is an old set of solid bodied ones (no holes or depressions in the sides)
These I had the screws and cam faces refaced.

The second set is a current production set from Ebay USA. They are hollow with holes in the sides. The "lightweight" choice. (second lightest option after Fords original non adjustable push rods.

I selected my two best blocks (both C59a) and using a special long drill bit I bought for the task, drilled holes into the sides of the pushrod bores (at this stage I only owned the new ebay set of lifters) I tidied up the ports and de dagged the blocks to make them prettier. (this is going to be a racing bren carrier!)
Along with two crankshafts, I took my two blocks to the motor reconditioners and after a few days he phoned me to come in.
"I am sorry to tell you this" he said, "both your blocks and both your cranks are cracked" "Not usable!" "What else have you got?"

So I thought about a flathead coffee table (4 seconds) and then my wife (2 seconds) and took all four items straight to the scrap man, on my way home.

O.K. so at home I pulled out another block (C69a) gave it a visual, drilled holes again in the sides of the push rod bores so that I an hold my hollow adjustables,(with an Allen key through the hole) while adjusting them. I didn't bother about the ports or the dags this time,(a not so racey bren carrier) and with two more cranks, took them to town.
Each time each item had gone through the tanking process, before crack testing. This block had a small crack in the bell housing, and some serious pitting in a water pump face, but otherwise o.k. One crank was good.
So far I'd spent $1200.00!

Moving on:
I have the crank and cam fitted and it's time to fit the lifters.
I have been on the Fordbarn forum and learned from some of the wise ones that these modern adjustables are sometimes less than perfect. That each one should be Rockwell tested and that the odd one wont hold its setting.

So I have put the old ones in the engine. (because I haven't got off my a.se and organised the rockwell test)
I did by the way buy a couple of the Johnson spanners.
These are such fun to use!
This little exercise can test you.
One end has a right angle bend in it to go in a hole in the top of the lifter. The other end has a rounded hole in it that swings sideways to go under the head of the adjacent adjusting screw. (they come in a pair, one left one right)
The one you pick up first is nearly always the wrong one (it's a rule!)
This stops the one you are adjusting from rotating in its bore while you swing on your other spanner.
The fun begins when you want to adjust one and you have to turn the cam to lift the adjacent one to a height that is suitable to swing the "J" (Johnson)spanner into place. (the lifter body has to come up to flush with the top of the lifter bore)
This is fine and "do"able. It just means after you have made an adjustment, you have to remove the J spanner and turn the cam again, to the right place to check the clearance.
This is where I have run into trouble:
In trying to lock the J spanner into place, I have found that the adjusting screw is not out of the top of the lifter far enough to get the j spanner to slide in around the thread. So, clever me grinds the tiniest bit off the corners, of the rounded lock slot, so that the J spanner will slide side ways onto the hex.
But, the bloody thing wont stay there! Trying to jamb it with prybars, bent screwdrivers, vice grips, (nothing is the right shape!) It will hold in one direction, but not the other.
I ended up pulling the valve, then the lifter, and jambing it in the vice in softjaws and making an adjustment, and then putting the whole lot back in, for another measure.
This also is o.k. except that when the heads are finally on, I was hoping to put myself though the masochistic exercise of doing a final adjustment without pulling the heads.
I guess I should buy a new pair of J spanners from the USA and see if they now fit under all the screws.
What was Fords tool for these lifters before Johnson came along.
BTW. I wondered why guys ground scallops into the top of the lifter bores, but having nearly stuffed a new Stahlwille 7/16 R&OE spanner , I now know.
I still have about 6 left to adjust.
I would be interested to hear from others on their experiences with the various types of "Johnson" (and Ford) adjustables.
Some thoughts:
These old solid ford (9N?) lifters have thicker hexs than the Johnson adjustables that the J spanners were made for.
The depth of the valve seats, the state of the cam, (original, reground) and the lifters (new or refaced) all have a definite bearing on the results.
I would definitely grind the scallops into the top of the lifter bores in future.
I bought a set of Chev valves and a set of Ford stainless valves. I used the stainless ones in this engine. The Chev ones are 0.100" longer and with a std cam (not reground) they would need the 0.100" ground off the stems.
Because the keepers are further down, they would also need shims.
Suggestion; go with Ford spec valves.
I could have finished my valve adjustment by now

[Ganmain Tony]

Wow Lynn

Thanks for posting - Im not far off going through this experience. Hope I have smoother ride.

Great to see MLU being used as a coping mechanism. I reckon I might have had a Johnson tool buried in the end wall of the shed by now.

[Darrin Wright]

I love the detail and length of your exploits Lynn.

When I did my engine, I purchased new guides, springs and the interference lifters from Macs. These lifters were hollow and allowed tools to go through them and assist with adjustment.
I did not buy any special tools, just followed dads advice and old skills to adjust and rebuild.
I have heard both good & bad of some of the parts from Macs.

They were the type (I did not know you could make small mods to the block to assist with adjustment) that I figured had to be installed and checked, then removed from the block and adjusted. That is the process I followed, similar to the old original methods of adjustment. Place them in the vice and make an ever so small adjustment and then re-install and repeat the process, checking & measuring.

Check my resto pics, no ref pics to post for you.

At best, it took me about 1hr per valve and one or two that were a pain in the a&$e was about 3hr. Found a bent valve...So after about 3 days I had completed the valve adjust and install.
Luckily Im not paid by the hour and could have had a 3rd arm for the task.

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, If you have still a bare block, and Darrin, for your next V8 rebuild, drill the hole in the side of the lifter bore (Ford called the lifter a pushrod)
This allows you to insert a small Allen key in the hole and into the body of the lifter. This lets you easily hold the lifter while making the screw adjustment. It makes a future valve lash adjustment (with heads still on) "easy" (all relative) What you also need to do is deburr the hole inside the bore. This I found more difficult than drilling the hole. It is important though, because any wee dent you make to the edge is going to push metal into the lifter bore. If you have a bevelled edge it won't happen.
If I had used the hollow lifters, it would have been dead easy. Next time!
Thanks for the responses guys.

[The Bedford Boys]

I won't be bothering with adjustable lifters in my next V8. The blokes that put my engine together for me (long time V8 enthusiasts) reckon they could've had the valves done in half the time if I'd given them some standard lifters! They've got the gear, so it's a piece of cake for them. I was originally going to assemble the engine myself, which is why I bought the fancy adjustable ones because I thought they'd be easy!

[Tony Wheeler]

Lynn, Tony, Darrin, can I ask why you chose adjustable lifters in the first place? I've never understood the logic on V8 flatheads, because you can't ACCESS them in service. They make some sense for in-line flatheads, where they equate to adjustable tappets on OHV motors, but even so they still come at the cost of greatly increased weight requiring substantially heavier valve springs.

Tony Baker mentioned a while back: "Decision between solid and adjustable lifters was made for me, because the cam I am using has been ground for 'street' use. Adjusting the Johnson lifters is a PIG of a job. I am minus several portions of skin as a testament to that fact. No swear words were uttered, although they were thought! Even with the correct lifter adjustment tools, and a 7/16 open ended spanner I ground considerably thinner than originally intended, still a painfully slow process."

In fact Tony was misinformed. Even the wildest cam does not require adjustable lifters. If the base circle is reduced beyond the reach of the stock valve, the standard solution is to use SB Chev valves ground to the appropriate length, with 8BA lifters to suit the parallel stem valve, and replacement valve springs of the required length and tension (or suitably shimmed stock valve springs).

Tony also mentioned the potential risk with adjustable lifters: "I hope to christ they don't re-adjust themselves during operation. Not aware of any instances of this occuring, and certainly don't wish to be the first. Thought about putting a dob of threadlocker on each. Don't know that would be a good idea. Does that stuff still work in the heat of an engines internals?"

A quick search of the net would indicate this risk is real, eg. following exchange in Ford Barn forum:

"I put a set of adjustable lifters in one of my 1940 Ford engines. Started the car and it sounded great. Two days later lifter noise has increased and the more I drive it the louder it gets. Is the red Loctite stuff the only answer for this problem or is there something else? Lifter screws are very tight to turn until you screw them way down to their bottom for the adjustments. Johnson lifters"

Reply: "toss them in the trash and have the valves set the right way, valves stem ground till the right clearance is achived, ive had more trouble over the last 50 yrs with those worthless adjustables, no matter who makes them"

That's exactly the advice Alex received from his engine builders.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Lynn, Tony, Darrin, can I ask why you chose adjustable lifters in the first place? I've never understood the logic on V8 flatheads, because you can't ACCESS them in service. They make some sense for in-line flatheads, where they equate to adjustable tappets on OHV motors, but even so they still come at the cost of greatly increased weight requiring substantially heavier valve springs.

I have used adjustable lifters made by Mike Davidson at Flatattack Racing. These are actually lighter than Ford factory solid lifters and far easier to adjust than Johnson or 9N lifters. The well known problem with Johnson lifters rotating out of adjustment is partly due to the small thread of the adjusting bolt (What is it? 5/16", 1/4"??) Mike eliminated that by going to 7/8" UNEF thread for the adjustment. I did drill the walls of the lifter bores to use a pin punch to hold the lifter while adjusting it. I used Manley stainless Chev valves (1.6" intake, 1.5" exhaust). Manley make these in a choice of lengths (std, +.100, -.100), but even by choosing the -.100 length, I couldn't use the standard Ford non-adjustable lifter as when these are used with non-Mushroom Head valves, the valve can actually punch through the thin head of the lifter (especially with heavier valve springs).

As for not being able to adjust lifters on the Ford V8 in service, well it can be done, just not with the engine RUNNING. It is probably best to set aside some time to do so, but by removing the Generator, the ball connections of the choke and throttle, and the fuel pipe into the fuel pump, it is then a simple job ( ) to take off the inlet manifold. I have a starter solenoid with a push button on top to enable the engine to be turned over with the starter. You can then either observe the valve train in motion (ie for sticking valves), or turn the crank to adjust particular valves in turn.

These pics are from a few years back when the valvetrain went in. I don't have a better pic of the Flatattack lifters, so I've blown up the portion of the pic.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Tony, If you have still a bare block, and Darrin, for your next V8 rebuild, drill the hole in the side of the lifter bore (Ford called the lifter a pushrod).

This allows you to insert a small Allen key in the hole and into the body of the lifter. This lets you easily hold the lifter while making the screw adjustment. It makes a future valve lash adjustment (with heads still on) "easy" (all relative) What you also need to do is deburr the hole inside the bore. This I found more difficult than drilling the hole.

Lynn, same idea, I used a pin punch instead of an Allen Key.

Cleaning up the burrs from drilling the hole was dead easy using a 1" Flexhone. A light spin in both directions with a reversible drill was enough. If the burr is particularly big, it might need to be pared back first, as the flex hone will only smooth over the surface rather remove large amounts of material.

[Lynn Eades]

Hello to the elite Tony M.V. Club of Australia
T.W. The logic behind going to adjustables was so that:
1. I could make a fine adjustment at any time in the future.
2. Because I don't have "friends with the gear" I have saved myself a small fortune in labour by doing as much as I can myself.

T.S. Nice photos. Nice lifters. M.D. doesn't mention them on his site. (no longer available?)
Yes, I would use a pin punch as well. Round hole, round lock tool makes sense. Most blurb seems to mention an Allen key.
I guess the point is that no ones uses a soft item like a nail and ends up with a bit of steel cut off and floating around in the lifter / engine.

G.T. All good info from your fellow countrymen. Hopefully it will set you on a good course. Good luck!

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

I have used adjustable lifters made by Mike Davidson

Nice lifters Tony. I'd certainly be a lot more comfortable with those.

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

I used Manley stainless Chev valves (1.6" intake, 1.5" exhaust).

Excellent choice, and likewise heavier valve springs (essential even without heavier lifters IMO). Very well thought out set up all round.

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

I couldn't use the standard Ford non-adjustable lifter as when these are used with non-Mushroom Head valves, the valve can actually punch through the thin head of the lifter (especially with heavier valve springs).

Just needs 8BA lifters Tony. They ran parallel stem valves. Mentioned in my previous post: "with 8BA lifters to suit the parallel stem valve". Mike D mentions here:

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

it is then a simple job ( ) to take off the inlet manifold.

Yes, I've probably overstated the lack of access, particularly with the likely service interval involved.

Thanks for your thoughts and pics Tony, very instructive.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

T.W. The logic behind going to adjustables was so that:
1. I could make a fine adjustment at any time in the future.
2. Because I don't have "friends with the gear" I have saved myself a small fortune in labour by doing as much as I can myself.

Yes, I'm starting to see the attraction Lynn. It occurred to me that curiosity alone might drive me to check valve clearances after running in, which is reason in itself to install adjustable lifters. But not if they're a nightmare to adjust. Just reading that first post of yours gave me nightmares!

I was very sorry to hear about your cracked blocks. It's quite common I'm led to believe, so I'm fully expecting same thing. Interesting comment from Mike D: "I am now collecting parts for my next race engine which will be a 284 cu. in. naturally aspirated unit. I will be using a 99 series block which is the same as my last two engines. They may not be as thick as some of the later blocks but are not as susceptible to cracking either."

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Nice lifters. M.D. doesn't mention them on his site. (no longer available?)

They are indeed nice lifters. I could talk myself into a set of those if they're still available. I do notice however that Mike D prefers stock lifters in his race motors: "Valve train components will consist of NOS Ford lifters, overlength Manley race flow 1.72" and 1.5" valves and Isky dual valve springs."

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, It only became "a nightmare" (which it isn't) because I decided To use the Ford 9N lifters, instead of the hollow (holes in sides)ones.
The other problem was not having on hand a second set of Johnson spanners (un ground)
The old factory set up with mushroom stems is fine if like Alex you have access to the right gear. I have looked around for an old valve refacer, but not yet landed on the right one. The other thing is I'm in my early sixties and not sure I need one anymore. I will use adjustables and one piece guides in any motor I do.

On a side note here are a couple of bits of info I have picked up just recently:

1) Bigger inlet valves gain you nothing until you have "upped the anti" in many other areas as well.

2) from a guy who is building V8 flatheads all the time (his business in the States)
He says bore size increase does very little in the power stakes, but increased stroke gives good gains.
He will not take on any Ford flathead v8 job unless the customer:
- 1. is prepared to go with using torque plates.
- 2.The installation of bronze lined guides.
Everything else is negotiable.
To me that is good advice.

[Stew Robertson]

I hate to be a spoil sport
but you guy are making a big deal out of getting these old flatties to power you carriers and trucks
They where installed in such, to power them from point A to B and there was never any big deal ( ger done)
they are what they are and they are not race engines
the mercury engine is the better because of the stroke but the 85 HP was alright in the trucks and carriers
When the military done a rebuild it was because the engine got tired
they took it out sent it back for new rings and bearings and kicked it out the door, very seldom a flatty needs a valve job other than lapping them in
and putting them back where they came out of

Now I am at 4 cents

[Tony Smith]

You're not a spoil sport, you're just pointing out the facts.

I don't think any of us are hoping for a fire breathing race engine, but are certainly aiming for reliability and a possible increase in efficiency. While it's certainly true that the military just threw the engines back together when they got tired, in some cases (ie Nth Africa Carrier engines), that was as often as every 1000 miles. By taking a little care in the rebuild, we're hoping for good longevity.

Also, in my case especially, you can't always buy NOS standard parts at the time you want it. I couldn't get new Mushroom head valves anywhere, so had to resort to 8BA or Chev valves. Finding a set of second-hand but still new-in-the-box Manley valves off e-bay meant that I not only saved a few bucks, but got a purported performance gain in the bargain. I searched high and low for new 8BA lifters and couldn't find a supplier. Used, worn ones were all I could get. They would do the job, I suppose, but I wanted new parts and adjustables made sense.

[Stew Robertson]

I understand where you are coming from
I did not realize you guy down under have trouble getting engine parts but are you guys going to put a1000 miles on a carrier with the throttle pinned to the floor
as that is the way they were driven
I drove a 42 Ford car and put well over 300,000 miles on it and never rebuilt it just added oil 9Now I would say that is pretty reliable and it did not leave me on the side of the road like some of this new S**T

[Lynn Eades]

Currently Stew there are 3 listings on "Trademe" (your Kijiji?)
There are two motors, laying outside. Both seized. One is early (should have) w. pumps in heads the other, later. Start price of auction $100.00
The next one is a motor and spare block $1900.00 start price. The last one is a motor that ran 2 years ago, listed at $3300.00.

I could buy parts to rebuild a motor from the various dealers in N.Z., but I find it's cheaper to import the bits myself. We are past the day when you can readily pick up a good motor for a low price. You need to be in the know or you pay and pay.
The block I am doing up came from a paddock where it had sat with no heads or sump and I broke the pistons out of it.
I do have a military block, that I haven't yet had crack tested that a chap from the Fordbarn forum (Brian B...... from Masterton) very generously gave me. I have another yet, up my sleeve (it feels better that way)

My experience has been that a 3 3/16 bore flatty, that the crank turns in, will cost about $500 to $800 with heads manifold, and sump in place. No other guarantees. Some ancilleries might come with it. A runner is another story.

I don't think the above two high price listings will sell, but it only takes one idiot.
As I stated early on in this thread, my first two blocks and cranks went to the scrap man, the blocks with cracks around the centre and rear mains.
If a motor was pulled many years ago, it has something wrong.(people ran them until they stopped, blew the dipstick out or they couldn't keep oil in them) If it is a complete motor, you might be lucky enough, that a hot rodder has pulled it to put in a Chev (It might be good, but he's looking to recover some costs)
Here it is in a nutshell:
If I could buy a good runner for cheap , I'd be in like Flynn, but if I have to rebuild it, I may as well do it properly.

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

I learned something today that I did not know about before. "The Rockwell Test." I went on YouTube and found a video Accessed April 26th from, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2JGNlIvNC4.

Then I realised that back in my High School Metalwork class we just referred to it as a type of "Hardness Test".

I did a quick search for what a "Johnson Spanners." might be.
All I could find was that it was the name of a tool manufacturer, or they were a tool used for working on Johnson outboard motors. Are Johnson Spanners a specialist type of spanner - if so what do they look like?

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lynn Eades]

Hi Lionel, these are them.