Shermans in Italy -- colours

[Bob Potter]

I had a spare minute during my free period and some old questions surfaced. I have gotten back into my studying Shreman tanks mode, trying to do some modeling of the Italian campaign. I finally got my hands on Mike Starmer's books and they have helped a lot. But, as usual, for every question answered, several more have appeared.

1. One for William Marshall. In one of your publications, you show 6SSAD Sherman V's as olive over light stone. I also see your name as "consultant" in Starmer's books. Are you sticking with the light stone, or have you revised your thinking to be light mud as base coat?

2. One for Don Dingwall (and not his brother Doug -- an old faux pas) on Canadian Shermans. Starmer suggests that Canadian Shermans were repainted shortly on arrival in Italy. From what to what? Or were they olive for the duration? Do I have a reason to do an Ontario Regimetn Sherman in light mud?

3. Shermans in Italy generally. How "regular" was the dark grey over light mud? One book I have on Polish Shermans says olive over desert pink; another book on Polish Shermans says dark grey over light mud.

I know, I know. Just paint the bloody things and weather the heck out of them. Thanks for reading and being patient.

Bob Potter

[John McGillivray]

I hope that we can come up with a definitive answer to this question.

According to Nicholson in “The Canadians in Italy, 1943 – 1945” the Canadian tanks were camouflaged before embarkation.

(p33-34) “May passed into June, and the deadline set by the War Office for the completion of preparation found the Brigade in a satisfying state of readiness. By the middle of the month, when the time came for embarkation, units had received their full scale of equipment, their tanks were camouflaged and waterproofed, and officers and men had completed five days' privilege leave.”

However, while photos show that tanks from the Ontario and Calgary Regiments were indeed camouflaged, the tanks of the Three Rivers Regiment appear not to be. This may be explained by the fact that TRR formed part of the assault force, with earlier embarkation and sailing dates, and therefore had less time to prepare.

The slow assault convoy which included the LSTs carrying TRR left the UK for Sicily, on the 19th of June. The other two tank regiments sailed as part of the follow-up force, and only reported to their LSTs on the 20th of June with a sailing date on the 25th.

I hope that someone can add to this.

[Bob Potter]

I shall sit with my copy of Nicolson and read very carefully, but until then I (we) are stuck with my lousy memory.

I know the Canadians fought in Sicily (I want to diorama that too). Did they repaint after campaigning in that place? Did they follow the order of October 1942 and paint dark grey over light mud?

My larger question (I guess) revolves around the extent of compliance with the order of October 1942. There seems to have been considerable deviation, at least as far as color.

Although I have been warned by the astute members of this forum, I have also been studying my copy of the Waramps video, "A War of Their Own," on the Sicilian and Italian campaign. The Allied footage looks like it is in the right place, by region and chronology, even if much of the Axis footage is way off the mark. In this video (and in the video, "Canada at War," which a friend kindly taped from PBS in Oregon), there is footage of dark over light Shermans drving off landing craft. "Red Patch" soldiers are seen in proximity with them. Brave conclusions, anyone?

Thanks for making me think. Now for making my thinking organized.

Bob

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Picture of 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade Sherman tank on Sicily.

H.

[Steve Guthrie]

Hi there

Military Modelling November 2006 has an article by, ahem, me on the topic of Canadian vehicle camouflage painting.

It also has acrylic model paint mixes.

Steve

[John McGillivray]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Picture of 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade Sherman tank on Sicily.

Hanno, here is a link to the same photo on ArchiviaNet web site.

http://data4.collectionscanada.ca/ne...e.html&r=4&f=G

[John McGillivray]

Here are photos of Sherman tank in Sicily. The first one is from the RHQ of the Three Rivers Regiment just after landing at Pachino. Sicily.



A painting by Will Ogilvie.



11th Canadian Army Tank Regiment (Ontario) supporting the 13th British Brigade, 51 (H) Div, on the 3rd of August in the area east of the Dittaino River. (NAC PA13602)



Orders group. (Three Rivers Regiment?)



The dust of Sicily.

[John McGillivray]

Three Rivers Regiment in Regalbuto between the 3rd and 5th of August 1943.

NAC PA170290







IWM NA5593

[John McGillivray]

Some captures from a DVD.



Three stills of T-146339. According to Don Dingwall’s publication “Canadian Armour in the Italian Campaign” this tank belong to the 14th Canadian Army Tank Regiment (Calgary).

[Bob Potter]

I truly appreciate the munificence of your photograph archives. These photos are inspirational for the modeler and diorama builder. Since Mini-art has just released a nifty Italian building ruin (mine is en route from the Ukraine as I type this), I have some more ideas.

The photos also give me thoughts about stowage but that's another issue.

Mr. Guthrie, I have your MilMod article and have read it what I thought was carefully. I say that because I took your focus to be northwest Europe. Thanks for the color chips.

But I think my questions remain, don't they? But the photos also tell me that dust covers a multitude of sins!

Now if we can get Ron Volstad to design some Canadians in that khaki drill summer weight battle dress for DML's injection machines.

Thanks a heap, again.

Bob

[Bob Potter]

I sat down -- again -- to read your MilMod article MORE carefully and found the bits on the Italian campaign I missed the first time. Your "mud" seems a good bit darker than the White Ensign paint I acquired some time ago. Is it that the Canadian batch mixes were darker? I'm not complaining, as I will use the White Ensign paint as "weathered," sort of.

I now understand why it is difficult to discern a camouflage pattern, since the "mud" is so (relatively) dark when alongside the SCC14 green.

A plea from a book-buying junkie. Have you considered getting together with Mr. Dingwall to do an illustrated version of his spiral-bound work on Canadian armour in WWII? As I suggest this I am thinking of the excellent book created by Jeff Plowman and published by the Polish house Progress. Such a title on Canadian armor is muich needed, and would be a perfect project for Clive Law's Service Pubs. (Note to self: check out Clive's webpage for new titles.)

Anyway, thanks again. I need to archive these excellent photographs and get the Sherman factory going again. By the way, speaking of Sherman factories, I think Chrysler made Sherman V's down the road from me at the Newark (Delaware) Assembly Plant.

Thanks a heap.

Bob

[Steve Guthrie]

Hello Bob

I fear nailing down exact shades of paint is like trying to nail down smoke. http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/im...lies/smile.gif

Light Mud IS a very elusive colour and given the nature of the terrain and climate in Sicily, it is impossible to be dogmatic about it

Mike Starmer includes some very nice paint chips in his series of books on British vehicle paint. I recommend them highly.

I just spent the week at the NAC and studied the 'Canadian Vehicle Camouflage' file, which Clive had found for me.
Very interesting stuff which will, yes, end up in a book on Canadian Camouflage and Markings

Glad you enjoyed the article.

STeve