Clip, Rifle, Double - Dimensions

[Skip Inge]

Hello all. I am in search of the dimensions for the tray/double rifle clip that holds the barrel end of the two Enfield rifles that get stowed vertically in the aft left compartment, just above the battery. I have enclosed a photo of the tray. I know this question has come up before but no dimensions were ever reported in that thread. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. I need to fabricate this item from scratch and need the dimensions in order to start. The attached photo was submitted by Michael R. for that older thread. The original thread was titled "dimension(s) request TL 13282."

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Is it critical to get the dimensions absolutely correct?

Because if you don’t mind that it’s slightly off, that photo is good enough to measure in and work out a good approximation of the real size if you have dimensions of the plate it’s mounted on.

Using the measuring tool in Photoshop, the height of the bracket is 48 pixels while the height of plate (at the left edge of the bracket) is 237 pixels. Similarly, the width of the bracket is 91.6 pixels and the plate width is 267.5. The depth of the clip seems to be about the same as the width of the plate alongside it.



If you measure up the real plate where the white and blue arrows are (that’s especially important for the white one), you can work out the approximate size of the clip easily enough.

[Skip Inge]

Jakko, I usually use photos and calipers to approximate the size of items that I need to fabricate. I do not have Photoshop and if I did I wasn’t aware that it had a measuring tool built in. This is exactly why I ask questions for items that I am unsure about. The assistance and experience of the members of MLU always offer a perspective that I had not considered. Thank you! I appreciate your measurements and for sharing how you did it!

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Glad it helps You can do the same by holding a ruler up to your screen, of course, but if you know that a graphics program has a built-in ruler tool, that’s generally more convenient to use.

And because I was curious, I checked the documentation for GIMP, which is a Photoshop-like program but entirely free. As I suspected, it also has a measuring tool.

[Skip Inge]

Outstanding! Thank you!

[derk derin]

I would like to know what was intended to be stowed in that tray? It doesn’t look like it was designed to simply distance the clips away from the armoured radiator cover. There must have been something that was stowed in that tray by the looks of the design.
Interested to hear if anybody knows if there was in fact something there and what?
Regards,Derk

[Ron Pier]

According to the OP it's for the barrel ends of two 303 rifles. But it looks more like the but ends to me. I'd also be interested to see how the rifles are stowed there. Ron

[Jakko Westerbeke]

The muzzles go into the forked end closest to the camera. The webbing strap is unbuckled, the muzzles are placed into the clip, and the webbing re-attached.

Finding a photograph that shows this is proving difficult, though.

[Ron Pier]

In Nigel's books VOL1, on pages 101&102 are drawings which show that bracket. Skip says the rifles are stowed vertically with the muzzles in that bracket. I'm having trouble visualising this? How are the butt ends stowed? Ron

[derk derin]

The weapons mount hold a spare Bren gun and a spare service rifle. On the floor in front of the battery is a double gun butt holder where the butts fit into. The muzzle ends of the weapons fit into the top clips. Originally they were rubber straps that secured the weapons in but as they failed the web straps were fitted to the mount.
Here is the top part of the mount shown on my carrier;
What I would like to know is if there was anything intended to be stowed in the tray. I have a spare Bren mag sitting in it but curious if it was an actual spot for a specific piece of equipment?

[Ron Pier]

I get it now! Ron

[Skip Inge]

Somewhere in the Carrier Forum I have seen a photo (can't find it right now) where someone suggested that the tray portion of this upper bracket is sized well for 50 round boxes of .303 ammunition. This seems ok, but perhaps not a great place to store cardboard boxes as they are exposed to the elements, especially rain. If anyone runs across that photo, please post it.

[derk derin]

If anything was stored in that tray it would have to be protected from the outside elements otherwise it wouldn’t last very long.
There was a metal bin that the .303 cartons of ammunition was stored in so I don’t think the tray would have held more.
I believe Rob heard reference of a part of the early 11 set radio was stored in that tray like an antenna mount or spares box. The fact that the 11 set was replaced early in its life for the installation of the 19 set meant the tray became redundant when this happened.
Does anybody have documents on the mounting of the 11 set in the Mk 1 carrier that could confirm this theory?
Derk

[kevin powles]

Watch this video, I don’t believe anything was officially designed to be stowed in there otherwise it would be shown in this video, it’s other use apart from supporting the rifles is to mount a radiator expansion tank below it.

https://youtu.be/-nTsnfEAjzI?si=x1xB_wcJ9Ea8NPPl

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by Ron Pier

According to the OP it's for the barrel ends of two 303 rifles. But it looks more like the but ends to me. I'd also be interested to see how the rifles are stowed there. Ron

I believe we will see the early stowage plans show it was designed and produced for one service rifle, near side, and one Bren gun. The width of the upper and lower brackets are correctly sized to accommodate the larger Bren closest to the engine, plus the butt holder is cut away to allow clearance for the Bren sling swivel attaching point on the side of the MK-I series Bren gun.

The early version of the top bracket used composite material with a “nipple through strap hole” system. While the existing nipple was retained, an update replaced the strap system with web and buckle. The side plates for the web strap system were designed to allow the original existing nipple to remain in place, the strap mounting plate was punched out to fit around the nipple.

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by kevin powles

Watch this video, I don’t believe anything was officially designed to be stowed in there otherwise it would be shown in this video, it’s other use apart from supporting the rifles is to mount a radiator expansion tank below it.

the drawing shown is from Dr. Wm Gregg Profiles book, showing the Canadian factory production C21UCM, (Nov 1942/July 1943) with No. 4 rifle models that did not exist prior to 1941. What is particular about this stowage is the fact the Canadian factory C21UCM did not provide any Bren gun stowage whatsoever. No gunner loophole firing rest, no spare barrel bin, no spares wallet hooks, no Bren AA pole, no AA pole sockets. Due to the lifting jack being relocated over the steering cam cover, the vertical Bren gun stowage location formerly in that location was deleted, the redundant fastener holes in the radiator blanking plate were riveted closed.

The C21UCM crew of five were established to be armed with rifles, which required stowing one across the radiator air intake in the front compartment, another along the right side engine cover protection plate, the fifth in the former Bren gun ready position to the right side of the gunner loophole in the front compartment.

Factory installed CMP style radiator recovery tanks were redesigned to install under the double SA bracket on the C21UCM, as well as a small number of custom orders placed with the Canadian Ford factory.