El Alemein

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Found a VHS documentary tape I forgot about for three years.Maybe someone can help me with the title as it's missing at the beginning.The end credits show it was made by Cromwell Productios 2001 for History Channel & goes from the battles of El Agheila,Tobruk,Gazala to the final battle at El Alemein.Since being on this forum,it goes to show film of Brens,all the British & American tanks,humber armored cars,Bedfords, Fords,Dodges,CMP Cab 15 Portees carriyng 2 pounders,Cab 11 30CWT's ,CMP C-15's & 30 CWT's.Scenes also show dismounted 2 pounders,6 pounders 25 poundersThere are two scenes where Rommel is shown with captured Cab 11's & Bedford's in the background as Rommel inspects them passing in convoy..It goes on to talk about Moorehead & Frieburg from Oz & New Zealand as being two of Monty's ablest generals.At the end of the tape there is an "in color"scene at the El Alemein commonwealth cemetary with a Cab-15 CMP 30CWT up on a pedestal without it's roof or windshield.Great stuff when I can identify all manner of vehicle but what's the tapes name if anyone knows??

[Tony Smith]

Ahh, MORSEHEAD and FREYBERG! Naturally they were two of Monty's best: they were both Gallipoli veterans and "Tiny" Freyberg had his VC.
Alamein was a stunning victory by the Australians ( !) and a terrible loss for the New Zealanders, who through lack of armour support from the confused British lost two battalions who were overrun and captured on Ruweisat Ridge. This led to Freyberg insisting on forming his own NZ armoured division which went on to settle the score in Italy.
The Australians got sick of more British antics and came home to fight the Japs in New Guinea, bringing back as many 12 cab CMP's as they could fit in their kitbags.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
The Australians got sick of more British antics and came home to fight the Japs in New Guinea, bringing back as many 12 cab CMP's as they could fit in their kitbags.

Tony, where did they find the room in their kitbags?, if you take into account all the 'BLOODY BEER' they had stashed away in them for their voyage home!

Cheers

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Tony,
Until I studied the tape I didn't realize the input of your army.I agree with you that the NZ forces didn't get the tank support thru the mine fields.After their fiasco,the British took it upon themselves to attack the middle of the line using the 1st Guards brigade.But for the final battle the line from the Mediterranean Ocean were the Auzzies,NZ,51st Highlanders.The Indians,& the South Africans.As a Canadian,I never realized how much your people were responsible for the final victory.We had our own problems that August 1942 aka Dieppe.But it's good to reflect upon how gallant your boys were.

Best Regards

[Tony Smith]

As a Canadian,I never realized how much your people were responsible for the final victory.

The Aussie Divisions that fought in North Africa fought well and were highly respected as a foe by Rommel, as were the New Zealanders, too. With the threat from the Japanese in the Pacific, Australians spent the latter half of the war in the east. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any actions where Australians and Canadians fought side by side (excepting Air Force and Naval
servicemen). Naturally, we were all in it together for the right reason, fighting for the King!
The New Zealanders, however, probably have a lot more in common with the Canadians as they remained with the 8th Army and went on to fight in Italy and saw action in places such as Cassino, Liri Valley, Sangro River, etc. They even were issued with late war "European" equipment that the Aussies never saw, such as Sherman Fireflies and No4 Longbranch rifles. The Aussies kept on plugging away at the Japs with Matildas, M3 Stuarts and No1 SMLE's.

[John McGillivray]

I think that the only time that the Australians and the Canadians were teamed up on the same battlefield, was on August 8th, 1918, at the Battle of Amiens in the First World War. Both the Canadian and Australians Corps attacked side by side and blew a great big hole through the German lines and started the run towards the end of the Great War. Naturally most of the History books give all of the credit to the British tanks, even thought most of them did not even cross the start line. It was called the "blackest day" for the German Army.

[Tony Smith]

Before Amiens, Australians and Newfoundlanders (who were at that time, not strictly Canadians) fought at the first battle of the Somme in July, 1916.

[Mark W. Tonner]

The Alamein Line - 23 October

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

The Amiens Battle Area 8 August 1918

Cheers

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Tony,
My dad fought in these battles you mention.He mentioned the Auzzies to me.One time in Italy he traded Canadian beer for Auzzie mutton.I guess for a change of taste.They also shared something else.They were both proud to wear the Eigth Army patch.Also in common,you had Gallipoli,we had Dieppe!!

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Tony,
My dad fought in these battles you mention.He mentioned the Auzzies to me.One time in Italy he traded Canadian beer for Auzzie mutton.I guess for a change of taste.They also shared something else.They were both proud to wear the Eigth Army patch.Also in common,you had Gallipoli,we had Dieppe!!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Can I just add that # 11 and # 12 Cab CMPs that were issued to the AIF initially were it now seems, paid for by summer 1941 between the Australian and British Governments. Thus although they were to British contract or initialy purchased by London, they were shipped to the Mid-East and then issued as I said to the AIF and NZEF and Indian Army as well as the Eighth Army. Those trucks purchased after the issue to the AIF were shipped to Australia in due course, and thence in some cases to the Pacific campaign.

[Tony Smith]

Garry, the Australians didn't go to Italy with the 8th Army, the New Zealanders did. I'm surprised the Kiwis would trade away some of their sheep - what would they do for company?

Mark, good maps of Alamein and Amiens. The Amiens map shows the location (between the "S" of Somme river and the "3" of 3rd Corps) where Australian Machine Gunners shot down Baron Von Richtoven while he was being chased by Canadian Capt Roy Brown. Good shooting, guys!

I do realise that forum is mostly for discussion of the Canadian efforts in WW2, but some actions in WW1 do have a bearing on later events. For instance, apart from Morsehead and Freyberg who were more junior officers at Gallipoli, up in the hills was another, a newly commisioned British Subaltern William Slim. Just prior to the Amiens battle in 1918, the Australian General John Monash devised the plan for the attack on Hamel. This was considered the new standard in planning the co-ordination of arms, with aircraft and tanks being used in completely new roles like ammunition re-supply and casualty evacuation. After the sucess of this action, a series of conferences and lectures were held to disseminate this new doctrine for the upcoming Battle of Amiens and "Der Schwarze Tag". One of the conference attendees was a little known Brigadier B Montgomery, who used just those same tactics of co-operation, meticulous timing and non standard roles for his Alamein battles 28 years later.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
.....bringing back as many 12 cab CMP's as they could fit in their kitbags.

Hi Tony;

Caught on film , members of the 9th Australian Division trying to smuggle '12 cab CMPs' out of Port Tewfik, January 1943, in their kitbags.....where did they hide the bigger pieces?

Cheers

(the real caption reads: Stowing kits on to a lighter for trans-shipment to the Queen Mary, one of the ships which transported the 9th Division home. Port Tewfik, January, 1943.)

[Mark W. Tonner]

Found a better map showing the advance of the Australian and Canadian Corps', 8-11 August, 1918.

Cheers

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Hi Tony,
Sorry for mixing the Auzzies with the NZlanders.At least our guys got some lamb cops instead of SPAM or BULLY BEEF.
The El Alemein tape goes on to point out that Monty used WW1 tactics at the final battle."Seize & Hold" was the orfer of the day.This caused Rommel to commit his best reserves at these strong points captured on the coast,thereby releasing Monty's other corps to infiltrare the weak points Rommel evacuated.Great strategy!!

[Tony Smith]

This is currently listed for sale: Alamein map