Universal carrier

[Fred]

Anyone know of a Universal Carrier for sale. I am particularly interested in the larger, "four wheel" unit as used by the US Marine Corps in WW II Fred

[z-man-sr]

Have a t-16 for sale ,located in texas,e-mail zmansr@earthlink.net

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Fred
I am particularly interested in the larger, "four wheel" unit as used by the US Marine Corps in WW II

Hi Fred,

Do you mean the T16 Universal Carrier? I am anxious to learn more about them in USMC use. Except for a single picture with doubtful provenance, I have yet to see any proof of them being used by the USMC. Would love to hear if more information has come to the surface.

Thanks,
Hanno
http://www.geocities.com/t16carrier/

[Fred]

this was an experimental idea that proved of limited value as both a limited range flame thrower and scout, command and control vehicle. The T16 apparently did not do well in the soft sands and dense jungle terrain as was the norm in the Pacific. My understanding is that the T16 was only employed with the 3ed Marine Division but I still need to do some more research as to what operation(s) they were used. I'll keep you posted as more becomes available. Fred

[G166UC]

I, like Hanno, have extreme doubts that T-16s were used by the 3 rd Marine division. Where did you get that info? There is only one photo of a T-16 with suppossedly a few marines in it, driving through some sand dunes. I think the photo was taken somewhere on the East coast of the US, either in Aberdeen, Md. or Quantico, Va. Both bases located very close to sand dunes.
By the way, Hanno, will you be at Beltring again this year? I will be there from tuesday through Friday. Rod Shaver

[Fred]

Ron; like I said, I am not sure about the 3ed's use of the T-16. I read of a couple of referances about the T-16 aka with the 3ed but as of this point, I have my some doubts as well, prehaps it was a proof of conciept, one-of-a-kind idea or just something that was kicked around but never assigned to the fleet. I am going to try to contact the Marine Corps amphibious museum and the folks at Quantico and see if they know yes or no. As time permits, I'm going to try to do some more google searching as well, you guys got me wondering at this point. There was an MVPA member in North Carolina some time ago who did a "Marine Corps version" of the T-16 but I no longer have that address. I certainly don't want to start making up history that does not exist except in someones imagination but if there is such a unit, then it would certainly be worth the effort to build a living example. Fred

Hi Fred,

Welcome to MLU Forums ... and ...

Be sure that when you click to submit a reply to a post that you click on "post reply" rather than "new thread" otherwise you will get a new thread like you just did here.

Let me know where this post belongs (which post/thread were you replying to??? and I will move it there for you.



Karmen

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir 2nd
...Be sure that when you click to submit a reply to a post that you click on "post reply" rather than "new thread" otherwise you will get a new thread like you just did here.

Let me know where this post belongs (which post/thread were you replying to??? and I will move it there for you.



Karmen

Done, Karmen, but thanks for the heads-up to Fred.

Fred, you just have to train yourself to go for "reply" rather than "New thead", or we're just going to keep nagging you...

Cheers mate!

Jif

[Fred]

Sorry guys; looks like I stired up a fire storm based on bad information. To all; I am not attempting to "reinvent" history. I thought I was onto a piece of little known history.

Just talked to some folks at Quantico and they are saying essentially the same thing; there is NO RECORD of the 3ed Marine Division, (or any Marine unit) using the T-16 so to one and all, sorry for the misinformation.

the party in Carolina; if I ever find his ID again, I'll attempt to folow up with his source before proceeding.

I do intend to attempt to restore a T-16 but I'll focus on the mechanical end of it for now until I find out which US units (if any) used the vehicle and in what capacity

Thanks for the heads up to all regarding the suspect "history" that I was quoting.

Fred

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

... I seem to recall reading an observation by a WW2 vet that he marvelled at the Corps using carriers somewhere or another. Let me see what I can find...

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Done, Karmen, but thanks for the heads-up to Fred.

Jif

Thanks Geoff ... I didn't have time to go looking for what post Fred's reply might belong to and move it. Quicker to just tell and ask

Karmen

[Fred]

That would be great. Before I close the books, I am going to attempt to check out the Division Histories of each of the six Marine Corps Divisions and see if they can shed some light on the subject. I will also ask some contacts at PAX River if they know of anything.

rumors are a fact of life in the military but they almost always have a basis of truth; the trick is finding the source, (basis of) of the wellspring for that truth.

If the T-16 was in the exploritory stage of assignment, it might be regulated to a test and eval unit and not actually assigned to the fleet; similar to what the folks at PAX River do with an aircraft before it is accepted. Fred

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

PLEASE stop hitting "New thread" to reply to an existing post; the last one was the third of yours I've moved today alone!

When you want to reply to something already written, look for the "Quote" button at the bottom of that particular post, or hit "Reply" at the bottom of the page.

NOT "NEW THREAD" UNLESS YOU WISH TO START A NEW THREAD NOT RELATED TO THE PRESENT CONVERSATION!

[Fred]

OK guys, sorry for all the trouble, lets see if this works

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
PLEASE stop hitting "New thread" to reply to an existing post; the last one was the third of yours I've moved today alone!

When you want to reply to something already written, look for the "Quote" button at the bottom of that particular post, or hit "Reply" at the bottom of the page.

NOT "NEW THREAD" UNLESS YOU WISH TO START A NEW THREAD NOT RELATED TO THE PRESENT CONVERSATION!

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

You've got it... this software gives you all sorts of options re presentation etc. Take some time to learn them and it'll be a lot easier for you!

Now, something for you.

COMBAT OFFICER
A Memoir of War in the South Pacific
by Charles H. Walker
Random House, 2004
ISBN 0-345-46385-4

Excerpt from Page 21:

Just as Sergeant Hoffman and I had nearly reached our position in the line I heard a Bren carrier roaring down by McCarthy's location. I found that Bob Campbell of our Company H had brought up a carrier to rescue the Marines still mixed in with the Japanese in the high grass. McCarthy and two other men had jumped into the carrier, which ran across to the Japanese line, defying the odds. Armed with only one machine gun on the Bren, McCarthy held off the enemy, enabling the Marines to pile in. Their return trip was made without incident in spite of heavy enemy fire. McCarthy was later awarded the Distinguished Service Cross and the other men Silver Stars for the sortie.

These guys were Company H of the 164th Infantry, and this action took place on Guadalcanal late October 1942; you can figure out the Marine unit there, although the 1st Marines rings a bell.

There are other references to Bren carriers elsewhere in this text, but it will take me a while to find them.

On the subject of the carriers themselves, I'm wondering if they were pinched from the Aussies; the only other thing I can think of is that a limited number were acquired for evaluation purposes. Perhaps our Australian mates can shed some light on this? In a case like that, I wonder what the markings might have been, and indeed, whether the Aussies pawned off British or Canadian carriers on the Yanks, or whether the carriers were Australian.

I'll keep looking for more references, but this is a start! If you're serious about doing this project, we'll have to first establish carrier type and mark...



Jif

[David Ellery]

Hi Geoff,
The Carriers mentioned were most probably New Zealand built LP2,s. Jeffrey Plowman in his excellent series "Kiwi Armour. Armoured Fighting Vehicles of NZ" mentions LP2 carriers which were built for supply to the Eastern Group Supply Council " never took delivery of any carriers from the batch of 650 manufactured for them. Instead 23 were supplied to the United States forces in the Pacific in May 1943 and a further 10 were purchased by them in June for the Free French Forces"

Also the First US Marine Division was supplied with LP2 carriers when they were based here in NZ 1942, Jeff goes on to say " four LP2 carriers were borrowed by the Second US Marine Division in December 1942 for trials with the Scout Car Company of 2 Tank Battalion. Those in command had decided that the Scout cars were not appropriate for fighting in the Pacific Islands, so a trade was arranged with the NZ Army in which they got the scout cars and the Marines got the carriers"

Jeff goes onto say that more carriers were requested by the US forces, but not spare parts. " Four were shipped to the Solomons where they were used to carry stores from the beaches"
Might throw a bit more light on the USMC and carriers in the Islands, Cheers David..

[Fred]

Hey thanks for the patience on this; no excuses, just need a little orientation on how to navigate.

From the source that your quoteing, that sheds a whole new venue about how the Marines may have gotten associated with the T-16. At this point, I am attempting to follow up on three sources of a T-16 for restoration, all of them the Ford Motor company's larger 4 wheel unit. I understand that the T-16 is not an easy restoration so its going to be some time before I have to make any historical decisions.

I think the Brits and Canadians used the 3 wheel version although Canada did manufacture quit a number of these units under licience from Ford, however I don't know which ones.

Your correct, the 7th was the Marine unit that landed on Guadalcanal and they were essentially abandoned at first. The Army's 164th was involved and my guess is that they migrated to the canal from Australia and quit possibly obtained some of the T-16's for their use. During subsequent combats, (remember this island took 6 months to secure), it is equally likely that Army and Marine Corp units swapped and traded equipement, hence the confusion about the "Marine Corps varient" Now I'm guessing that the Marines simply used Army equipment but without official assignment to any particular unit. I will still attempt to locate some official documentation with regards to the 3ed to see if there is something to it, however the folks at Quantico said that the T-16 was not part of their inventory, (at least according to the guy I talked to on the telephone with today)

Lets keep all the options open and see how this evolves, could prove interesting.

Fred

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
You've got it... this software gives you all sorts of options re presentation etc. Take some time to learn them and it'll be a lot easier for you!

Now, something for you.

COMBAT OFFICER
A Memoir of War in the South Pacific
by Charles H. Walker
Random House, 2004
ISBN 0-345-46385-4

Excerpt from Page 21:


These guys were Company H of the 164th Infantry, and this action took place on Guadalcanal late October 1942; you can figure out the Marine unit there, although the 1st Marines rings a bell.

There are other references to Bren carriers elsewhere in this text, but it will take me a while to find them.

On the subject of the carriers themselves, I'm wondering if they were pinched from the Aussies; the only other thing I can think of is that a limited number were acquired for evaluation purposes. Perhaps our Australian mates can shed some light on this? In a case like that, I wonder what the markings might have been, and indeed, whether the Aussies pawned off British or Canadian carriers on the Yanks, or whether the carriers were Australian.

I'll keep looking for more references, but this is a start! If you're serious about doing this project, we'll have to first establish carrier type and mark...



Jif

[Rob Dyba]

Previous thread for US carrier use...


http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...&threadid=2781


Rob

[alleramilitaria]

from what i have seen there was a MK I or II carrier "borrowed" by the marines and used untill it was disabled then abandened. only seen one bad pic of it.

i know where there is a good T-16 here in texas for about $16,000. it never left the US, and i can arange shipping for you
dave

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by robobmc
Previous thread for US carrier use...


http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...&threadid=2781


Rob

My bad Rob, I should have searched myself. Only excuse was that I had a hell of a bad day yesterday, having to junk 2000 lines of SAS code I wrote last week, and my brain wasn't functioning properly. Add in that the ambient temperature here yesterday was 45C with the humidity factored in...

Anyway, thanks for the link.

Break break - Fred, if you haven't already, click on that link robobmc supplied! MLU comes to the rescue once again...

Jif

[Pedr]

Hey Jiffy

Would have thought that you'd be used to hotter temperatures after your stint "Downunda". I was more worried about you freezing up again when you got back.

hehehe

Pedr

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Pedr
Hey Jiffy

Would have thought that you'd be used to hotter temperatures after your stint "Downunda". I was more worried about you freezing up again when you got back.

hehehe

Pedr

I ain't bitchin' me ol' trout. Put it this way - I only ALMOST put my air conditioner back into the window last night, but decided I wasn't a wuss like most of the people here. So there. I don't mind the heat, but the humidity can get to me and I HATE it when the air conditioning is on full-blast (like in my office right now, I'm wearing a sweater)!

[G166UC]

Fred,
The gentleman in Morth Carolina who has the "Marine Corp" T-16 is William Warren. He based his whole restoration on that one photo of the T-16 with the contingent of marines in it. He also took the liberty of adding a 37mm gun stuck out through the gunners port. Of course, the recoil of such a weapon in that position, would have taken out the radiator. Also, the vehicle was restored as a marine corp vehicle, but still included many of the post war Swiss mods. It was a very impressive display, but was not very historically correct. The bad thing, about the whole display, was the fact that he not only won "best of show", but also won the "master c;lass" award for the vehicle. It was after this show that the judging rules and regs were completely redone, abd a new guy was put in charge of the judging at the nationals. i know William pretty well, and he does very good work on his restorations, but I think he took a few too many liberties with the T-16 restoration. Rod

[alleramilitaria]

yea i saw that one, good luck loading and fireing the 37mm.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by G166UC
The gentleman in Morth Carolina who has the "Marine Corp" T-16 is William Warren. He based his whole restoration on that one photo of the T-16 with the contingent of marines in it. He also took the liberty of adding a 37mm gun stuck out through the gunners port.

Here´s a pic of the T16 in question. Of course, being a Marine, it is "well hung"


Source: MVPA

[Pedr]

How the hell can that monstrosity have won first place at anything???

Was there anyone there that knew anything about military vehicles???

What f$%#ing dream did he have to shove a 37mm AT gun through the gunners slot???

THIS IS A TOTAL MISREPRESENTATION OF HISTORY!! And that is what I believed organisations like MVPA were in existance for....restoration and preservation of military vehicles for historic purposes. Like the slogan says " Preserving yesterdays history today, for tomorrow "

However, freak show displays such as this only perpetrate myth and false beliefs. Some people have a hard enough time trying to remember what happened over sixty years ago, without having that blurred by foolish ideas like this display.

If this is what this person really wants to do...then so be it, but don't demean a serious MV meet by awarding this crap first prize.

EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED.

Pedr

P.S. I am however fair, so if it can be proven with historical and photographic evidence I will retract all of my above statements and make a full apology. I don't think that I could be fairer than that.

Photo of a serious (toungue in cheek) Australian missile carrier, from the first world war.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Here´s a pic of the T16 in question. Of course, being a Marine, it is "well hung"


Source: MVPA

that 37mm looks like it would be a tough one to handle in combat, especially with the recoil travel. Was this ever tested?

[Fred]

Originally posted by G166UC
Fred,
The gentleman in Morth Carolina who has the "Marine Corp" T-16 is William Warren. He based his whole restoration on that one photo of the T-16 with the contingent of marines in it. He also took the liberty of adding a 37mm gun stuck out through the gunners port. Of course, the recoil of such a weapon in that position, would have taken out the radiator. Also, the vehicle was restored as a marine corp vehicle, but still included many of the post war Swiss mods. It was a very impressive display, but was not very historically correct. The bad thing, about the whole display, was the fact that he not only won "best of show", but also won the "master c;lass" award for the vehicle. It was after this show that the judging rules and regs were completely redone, abd a new guy was put in charge of the judging at the nationals. i know William pretty well, and he does very good work on his restorations, but I think he took a few too many liberties with the T-16 restoration. Rod

Rod thanks. I want to complete a T-16 if I can confirm that the Marine Corps did use them and under what conditions and what their markings are. The ideal is to put it with a USMC M2A1 half track I am completing in the command and control configuration; the Marines did use those for sure and I have a number of photos to back that up with.

[Fred]

Originally posted by alleramilitaria
from what i have seen there was a MK I or II carrier "borrowed" by the marines and used untill it was disabled then abandened. only seen one bad pic of it.

i know where there is a good T-16 here in texas for about $16,000. it never left the US, and i can arange shipping for you
dave

Dave; if it is not to late; please let me know what you have. I am in travel status constantly so it often takes me a while to get back to folks but you or the owner can contact me at my home address at rfhowley@msn.com Thanks Fred

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Fred
that 37mm looks like it would be a tough one to handle in combat, especially with the recoil travel. Was this ever tested?

Well, on a Jeep it was. Some pretty hairy ideas were tested as, you know, there was a war going on.

H.