Fitting tall guys in Cab 11/12's

[svdwal]

Moderator's note: this thread was split off from CMPs for sale in Holland as this subject deserves a thread of it's own:

Well, i didn't bought the truck. Not because there is anything wrong with the truck, it is really nice. The reason is that my legs are to long to reach the clutch pedal.....i felt very dissapointing and awkward towards the seller. This is something i've never expected, alltough i knew the early cabs are a bit small this i did not expect.

So, my search continues for a Commonwealth truck which fits in my garage and is nicely restored.

Thanks to everyone for their help and advice.

Rgds.

Sjoerd

[Markwin Serlui]

hi Sjoerd,

something to keep in mind!
what is your length I'm 1.77mtrs...
reg

[svdwal]

Indeed, something to keep in mind.
Alltough i never expected this. A bit of a tight space can be solved, but this was to small. I crawl into other vehicles without problems.

I am 1.96m.
A later cab model should be no problem, but this does not fit my garage i am afraid....at least not with a hard top.

We'll keep on searching,

Rgds.

Sjoerd

[Alex van de Wetering]

Sjoerd,

I guess what they say is true "Size does matter"......Pity you had to pass on the F8. You could contact Jaap de Wit here on the forum; he is quite tall and drives a C15 cab11!

A later cab model should be no problem, but this does not fit my garage i am afraid....at least not with a hard top.

You could look at an C15 or F15.....the non driven front axle makes them lower to ground. C15A or F15A could indeed be a problem with your garage door.

regards,

Alex

[svdwal]

Thanks Alex,

My search continues and eventually I’ll find a nice proper vehicle.
I’m not in a hurry but want a nice driveable ww2 Commonwealth truck.
This F8 was a nice change, but unfortunately not the right size cabin.

Maybe a F15 is an idea, but I think it might be to high for my garage.
I’ll find out.

Rgds.

Sjoerd van de Wal

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Guys

You just about have to be able to touch your nose with your knee to be able to get into either a Pat 12 or 13. That's why I go to exerciser class 3 times a week.

Getting your left leg and but into either of them is not bad, its pulling that right leg in because of the wheel cut out. I was a little 5'7" over when I got my first CMP 35 years ago, time has worn me down to 5'5" which is probably a good thing in terms of getting in and out of the CMPs.

One thing that does help is make sure your seat slide actually works, I've added a second spring to the seat rail so I have springs on both rails this helps the seat slide straight in the track. If I remember to hit the seat release and slide the seat all the way back before getting out it does make getting in easier.

If you are really tall and have a Pat 12 you may want to remove one or both of the wooden seat spacers to lower the seat.

Guess the best thing is to try on a CMP before acquiring.

Cheers Phil

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by svdwal

my legs are to long to reach the clutch pedal

Or to put it more precisely Sjoerd - your lower leg is too long to fit between the steering wheel and the clutch pedal. I know because I have the same problem, I'm 192 cm and there's no way I can operate the clutch on a Cab 12, especially with my Size 13 boots!

I used to assume this meant I could never drive a Cab 12, which was no great problem because I had no plans to own one. Recently however I saved one from the scrappy, and pretty soon I started having ideas about restoring it one day. Of course there's not much point if I can never drive it, so I started investigating the possibility. Sure enough it turns out there's an easy fix - raise the steering wheel. Seems obvious when you think about, but no one ever does! We just accept these problems as a fact of life with Cab 12s. However it should be noted there was a field modification kit issued for this exact purpose.

There's more to the story of course but I won't bore you with details here. Suffice it to say I've raised the steering wheel now and I can operate the clutch quite comfortably. It's only temporary but it could easily be made permanent, by the same basic method employed in the field modification kit. It could even be improved upon without detracting from originality.

I guess what I'm saying here is that we don't always have to accept Cab 12 deficiencies as inevitable. In light of these possibilities Sjoerd you may want to reconsider the F8. It's a lot easier to reposition the steering wheel than rebuild your garage!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

However it should be noted there was a field modification kit issued for this exact purpose.

There's more to the story of course but I won't bore you with details here. Suffice it to say I've raised the steering wheel now and I can operate the clutch quite comfortably. It's only temporary but it could easily be made permanent, by the same basic method employed in the field modification kit. It could even be improved upon without detracting from originality.

Tony,

Interesting to read about this field modification kit! Please do bore us with details here, as it's all part of the fascinating history of the CMP.

Thanks!
Hanno

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Tony

How did you do it exactly?? did you shorthen the bracket that attaches to the cowling....

Was there a particular service bulletin that addressed that modification.

I have lowered my seat and moved it as far back as I could on my cab 11... it does give me more room for clutching......

As to the boot size... unless I am wearing track shoes, my steel toe capped boots are just plain to big.

Pictures of you dash installation would be nice.

Thanks

Bob C

[svdwal]

Sounds very interesting, please share some more details.
Also i would like to see a picture of how you've solved this issue.

Indeed my lower leg is a bit long, which gave me problems in reaching the clutch.
The steering wheel is to low and the handbrake is blocking my leg.
How much extra room did the modification gives you?

Looking forward to you reply, as i am still have a strong feeling for the F8.

Regards,

Sjoerd

[Alex van de Wetering]

I agree, please tell us more Tony! I am likely to encounter the same trouble with my C8 cab 11.

I did see a C15 before that had the engine cover corner closest to the pedals slightly bent towards the engine by use of a wooden spacer.....this gave the owner just that more room for his foot.

Alex

[Tony Wheeler]

I'll post some details on steering mods shortly but first I'd like to specify the precise problem so we're all on the same page.

The critical dimension for tall people, which for convenience I shall refer to as dX, is the distance between the clutch pedal and the bottom of the steering wheel. That's because there's no room to swing your knee to the left, so your leg must remain under the steering wheel when operating the clutch. Therefore if your lower leg happens to be longer than dX, you cannot drive a Cab 12. No amount of seat adjustment can alter dX, and only an osteotomy can alter your lower leg length.

Conversely there's no problem operating the brake, because there's room to swing your right knee against the door to get it out from under the steering wheel.

Hence there are two possible solutions:

1. Create more room to swing your knee to the left.
2. Increase dX.

Solution 1 means relocating the handbrake, which is the first object blocking your left leg, but immediately adjacent to that is the engine cover, so that too would require modification, which would inevitably involve the dashboard as well. These are extensive and challenging modifications which would impact drastically on originality, and furthermore they're entirely unnecessary. Why do I say this? Because I'm 192cm tall and I can drive a Cab 13 comfortably with my legs under the steering wheel. Sure, there's room to swing my knees out on both sides, but the point is I don't NEED to. That's because dX is 40mm longer on the Cab 13, owing to the new pedal levers.

Thus we have confirmation of Solution 2, and we can now quantify it: Increase dX by 40mm. There would appear to be only two realistic methods:

A. Raise the steering column. This means shortening the steering column bracket, which alters the steering column angle slightly, requiring a shim between the rear steering box mount and the chassis.

B. Lengthen the steering column. Not a job for amateurs like me, but offering the tidiest solution which best preserves originality. Advantageous for those preferring to send the unit out and pay someone else to do the work.

Either of these methods will achieve 40mm dX increase, and considerably more if preferred, so there's clearly no obstacle for tall drivers wishing to own Cab 12s.

I should state here that my 40mm spec is based solely on my own Cab 12, so it needs to be confirmed on a few others. I also have questions about the steering column bracket found on my vehicle.

[Keith Webb]

Tony can you post a pic of the steering column bracket in case it's different from the standard? The Rover with the dash with hard angles on it looks like a standard cab 12 one but with about a 2" block to lower it, and the one with the rounded edge dash looks more like a Chev cab 12 bracket.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

Tony can you post a pic of the steering column bracket in case it's different from the standard? The Rover with the dash with hard angles on it looks like a standard cab 12 one but with about a 2" block to lower it.

Well done Keith, I see you have your thinking cap on!!

As Keith says, the vehicle I saved from the scrappy was formerly a Rover armoured car. By way of background, the following info from Keith's website:

"Based on a Ford cab 12 F60L chassis, the Australian Rover Armoured car was not a big success, being overweight and having poor cross-country performance, only 238 were built from late 1941. There were two basic variants, the Mk 1, or long wheelbase and Mk2 which used a shortened F60L chassis of 134 1/4". With a crew of 5 they earned the nickname of "mobile slit trench" because of their appearance. Their main use was in crew training. Hulls were built by both the Victorian Railways workshops and Ruskin Motor Bodies. The last was delivered in September 1943."


Pictured below are the two variants, with the "mobile slit trench" on display on the Mk 1. My particular vehicle was a Mk2 which appears to have been converted back to a standard GS truck during the war - the upshot being possibly the only Cab 12 F60S in Australia! As mentioned earlier I had no plans to own a Cab 12, and after trying to drive one three years ago I assumed it wasn't possible for someone of my height. Like Sjoerd I was astounded at the time, because I've driven some of the tiniest sports coupes ever built, and yet here was a TRUCK I couldn't squeeze into! However it seemed to confirm everything I've heard and read about the early cab being "cramped", so it came as no surprise to me upon getting this ex-Rover home that I could not sit in it and operate the clutch. Just like three years ago my leg jammed under the steering wheel. But wait!! What's that strange block under the steering column bracket? More on that in the next exciting episode....

[Nigel Watson]

Love the Armoured Car . Anyone got other photos or details of it?

[Tony Wheeler]

These are the only other pics I have myself Nigel, but I'm sure there are more around. The Armoured Corps Museum at Puckapunyal in Victoria has a Rover on display.

[Tony Wheeler]

Here are some pics of the steering column bracket, which as Keith says is standard Cab 12 but with a spacer block. Interestingly it's solid copper. Obviously it's a Rover part, designed to lower the steering wheel inside the low-roofed hull, but it got me thinking: What if I RAISE the steering wheel? Would I be able to drive a Cab 12 after all? Naturally I set to with some excitement and rigged up the steering column a bit higher, and sure enough it worked! Pic 5 shows the steering column raised 20mm at the bracket, which raises the steering wheel approx 25mm. Doesn't sound like much but it makes a world of difference to me - it means I can own a Cab 12!

In reality this experiment means that ANYONE can own a Cab 12, because you can shorten that bracket a LOT more than 20mm. However, the FIRST thing you need to do when considering a Cab 12 is check the seat. As Phil said earlier: "If you are really tall and have a Pat 12 you may want to remove one or both of the wooden seat spacers to lower the seat." Phil is absolutely right, the seat height makes a HUGE difference. There's no seat cushion on my Cab 12 so I'm sitting on the bare metal seat pan when conducting these experiments, so they're not valid for normal driving. However there's a 30mm wooden spacer under the seat frame, so if I remove that I can have a 50-60mm high density rubber seat cushion, which should compress down to 30mm under my bony arse, thus replicating the conditions of the experiment. In fact if I want to I can easily modify the seat mounts and gain a further 45mm, which would allow me to use the much thicker sprung CMP seat cushion. Now we're REALLY talking luxury!

Sjoerd, what this means for you is that if the F8 has wooden spacers under the seat frame, which I imagine it does, there's no way you could have operated the clutch. You may want to contact the seller and ask him to measure them, because that could be the solution for you. It may not be necessary to shorten the steering column bracket after all, at least not immediately anyway. Removing the wooden spacers may be enough to get you on the road.

Another point to note is that you can set the clutch pedal 20mm depressed, by means of a thick rubber stop behind the toe plate. Again it doesn't sound like much, but it makes a BIG difference for me. Obviously it would reduce full pedal travel, but there's 200mm travel on mine so we're only talking 10% reduction here. There's always a bit of spare travel on a properly adjusted clutch.

Anyway there are 3 areas for improvement - seat, clutch pedal, steering wheel. Cumulatively they offer huge potential for improved comfort in the Cab 11/12, and for tall people they are the avenue to ownership.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Here are some pics of the steering column bracket, which as Keith says is standard Cab 12 but with a spacer block. Interestingly it's solid copper. Obviously it's a Rover part, designed to lower the steering wheel inside the low-roofed hull, but it got me thinking: What if I RAISE the steering wheel? Would I be able to drive a Cab 12 after all? Naturally I set to with some excitement and rigged up the steering column a bit higher, and sure enough it worked! Pic 5 shows the steering column raised 20mm at the bracket, which raises the steering wheel approx 25mm. Doesn't sound like much but it makes a world of difference to me - it means I can own a Cab 12!

Tony, thank for the insight and pictures. But the first step is normally not necessary on Cab 11/12's, as the standard steering column is fitted to the cab without the spacer as used on the Rover.

Could you tell us more about the field modification kit you mentioned earlier? I am interested to learn if the cramped cab - by todays standards - was enough of a problem to design a modification during WW2. From what I can see, it would involve fitting another shorter or cut-down original bracket.

Thanks,
Hanno

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Tony, thank for the insight and pictures. But the first step is normally not necessary on Cab 11/12's, as the standard steering column is fitted to the cab without the spacer as used on the Rover.

Yes Hanno, I only included that photo to show the normal Cab 12 position, I didn't expect to be able to operate the clutch myself. Interestingly though I found it a lot better than the Cab 12 I tried to drive three years ago, which makes me believe the seat is lower in my vehicle. I don't know because there are no Cab 12s nearby to inspect, so I'd like to see some photos of other Cab 12 seat spacers. Or even just the measurements, mine is 30mm thick as mentioned, but it's a single spacer, whereas Phil spoke of there being two spacers.

I'll post some details on the field mod kits shortly, I don't fully understand them but they seem to be along the same lines as my own experiments.

[Tony Wheeler]

This is all I have on the field mod kits, I only found it recently and I haven't quite figured it out. Also it applies to a very early type of steering gear which I didn't even know existed. However they appear to be the same mods I've been talking about - steering height, driver's seat height, and the shim under the steering box. Clearly there was a problem for drivers, because two of the kits address those areas specifically. The other two kits are conversion kits to the later type steering gear, which is what we're dealing with now. Presumably this was an improvement for most drivers, but not enough for tall drivers.

Anyway, as I said earlier, it proves we don't have to accept Cab 11/12 problems as a fact of life. These kits would not have been designed and issued if they didn't work, and there's no reason we can't design a kit for the later type steering gear.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

there's no reason we can't design a kit for the later type steering gear.

Which reminds me - a simple kit could be designed to lengthen the steering column by 40mm, which is the best solution anyway. I know how I'd do it but I'll leave it to the engineers on MLU to give their thoughts.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

I have lowered my seat and moved it as far back as I could on my cab 11... it does give me more room for clutching.....As to the boot size... unless I am wearing track shoes, my steel toe capped boots are just plain to big.

Bob, how tall are you, and have you removed all the wooden seat risers on your vehicle? Ford parts list indicates there was only ONE wooden seat riser originally, however there was a field mod kit issued to RAISE the seat by using TWO wooden seat risers. This kit included longer 2 1/4" bolts to replace the original 1 5/8" bolts, which indicates the original seat risers were only 5/8" thick. However, in post war commercial use they may have acquired any thickness of wood, and I notice some restorers use very thick wood to replace the old rotted out stuff.

In hindsight I realize this is why I was unable to operate the clutch on the Cab 12 three years ago - I've checked some photos and the seat risers are far too thick on that vehicle. Even my own Cab 12 has much thicker seat risers than original, however I'm able to operate the clutch on mine, even with the steering bracket in the standard position, because the seat risers are not as thick as the other Cab 12. It's far from comfortable, but I could certainly drive the vehicle if it were running.

This is undoubtedly Sjoerd's problem too, the restored F8 most likely has much thicker seat risers than original.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

My Pattern 12 had one inch and two inch blocks on the drivers side and one inch blocks on the passenger side. Take a look at the metal channel the seat rails sit on there is another 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 that could be removed. But I'm not sure if it would actually make much difference to the leg length issue. Lower the seat also might make the problem of how much you have to be able to fold your legs up more of an issue.

Driving the truck with out the cab top definitely makes easier for tall or heavier people to get in and out of the passenger seat as you can just step up into the truck and then sit down. No top is not much help on the drivers side though as you have to work your legs in under the steering wheel.

I'm a bit surprised that in this discussion the point that people are in general taller and heavier than they were back in 1940.

Cheers Phil

[Private_collector]

Possibly in the military of WWII, the CMP dimensions 'selected' its driver, whereas now we want it the other way around. With height, comes limitations. RAAF wouldn't have me as pilot. Too tall for what I wanted to fly, yet cessna 152 fits well! My Father drove both cab 12s & 13s, and he was over 6' tall. At that time he had the physique of a greyhound, so sheer bulk wasn't problem either. Thats all that good army living for ya.

I remember hearing Dad say several times, there were no fat guys in the army. Guess he really meant the lower ranks, hey. Thomas Blamey, are you hearing this....down there?

[lynx42]

Originally Posted by Private_collector

Thomas Blamey, are you hearing this....down there?

HA!HA!HA!! Tony well done. He certainly was not one of the best.

Regards Rick.

[Alex van de Wetering]

My C8 cab11 has the same blocks as Phil's on the drivers side. (see pics attached). The thicker block even has a part number printed on it, which seems to read "5804113", but I can't find it in the parts list.

My co-drivers seat didn't have any wooden blocks, but a plate in stead which tilted the seat a little bit backwards.

Alex

[Bob Carriere]

Good evening everyone.

Truth of the matter is that the average WWII soldier had survived a depression and his overall "growth" had been affected ... so say a typical Canuck, even if coming from a farm, was probably in his late teens and about 150 pounds full clothed. He will no doubt get bigger but that is a post war issue.

I am 6 foot 2 1/2 inches and weight as much as 247 at one time...... now working hard at staying around 214 with a waist that went from 44+ down to 40 inches....and maybe shrank 3/4 of an inch.

Sitting in my cab 11 was a tight fit but can now squeeze my but a little better as the belly allows me to bend my legs better. My truck came with NO wooden spacer on the driver's side and a one inch rotten hard wood on the passenger side...

See pictures of the original condition ......

The foot well space is so small that I cannot drive the truck with safety boots with hard steel toe caps..... I need dress shoes or running shoes.
But I do have sufficient space to raise my left leg and double shift the clutch.

Howeever, I sat in the driver's seat of a CGT owned by the boys in Petrolia.... an amazing restoration previsouly features in MLU...... well in the gun tractor the front seat is hellish.... you actually have to step in a foot well and although I was 247 at the time, I would not fare any better today.
As I sat erect in the driver's eat the top pf my left leg was touching not pressing on the bottom of the steering wheel. No way that I could even try to drive it.

NOw my neighbour across the street is an old post war gunner who trained in the early 50's when the old CMP cgt where still in use.. when I explained my experienced he pointed out that it was regualr practice in his days to remove the reat cushion for the tall guys anf give them a bunk woolen blanket to sit on....OUCH!!!!

Now my cab 11 is not fully assembled yet and the set is bolted to the floor pan using a 3x 3 pine block of about the same height as the steel sliders with out any wooden spacer...... so my dimensions will be the same.

As anybody noticed the modification done to the cab 12...... just behind the seats back..... at the belt line where the top portion bolts on to the bttom section.......all the cab 12 I have seen have the angle iron relieved, section cut out by about 3/4 inch allowing the seat back upper most pipe to travel slightly more to the rear......it seems that every little bit helps.

The tight cab may also explain the propensity of soldiers to loose the doors in North Africa.... and the hood/bonnet if you had any maintenance to do....

I have riden in Phil's cab 12 and not having a top does make it like walking in to an open carriage...... much more pleasant.

Early parade square pictures in Canada do show the door of early cab 11 fully opened back to the cargo box...and may have been driven like that " a la jeep style"... which probably made a few sergeant angry when dents showed up in the prestine war machines..... so they retro fitted restraining straps which became standard on the cab 12.

Now the question of raising the steering wheel is interesting but from my rough measurements the most you would gain is one inch maybe 30mm at which point unsufficient clearance with the windsheild/windscreen would mean squeezing your knuckles.... no cheating allowed the cab 11 windows did not open forward.

So we have to suck it up... wear narrow shoes..... and expect back apin and sore bottoms if you intend to tour North America..... I had big plans of long re-enactment trips.... now I will settle to trailering the little beast whiel driving my air conditioned pick up to the site. Rets assured it will see dirt and mud but not about to re-enact driving from Ottawa to Gagetown NB

While on the topic of limited foot well area....... as anyone noticeds that soemn cab 12 actually have an even tighter foot well.... and that the inner fender is knotched to fit further inside and around the spring shackles....?
Not sure what the explanation is but the floor plate is narrower and the inner fender more rounded. I have one such example and it's the only one I have seen.

As usual, I will eagerly await comments and the wisdoms of others..... ain't it great!!!!

Bob C.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Now the question of raising the steering wheel is interesting but from my rough measurements the most you would gain is one inch maybe 30mm at which point unsufficient clearance with the windsheild/windscreen would mean squeezing your knuckles.

This is another reason I'd prefer to lengthen the steering column rather than raise it, or perhaps a combination of both mods to achieve the ideal position. I see no great difficulty in lengthening the steering column, and 40mm would be sufficient to replicate Cab 13 dX (distance from clutch pedal to bottom of steering wheel) which is the critical dimension for tall drivers.

However there may be an easier solution we haven't considered - swing the steering column to the right. Cab 11/12 steering column runs parallel to the chassis rail (looking from directly above) whereas the Cab 13 steering column is skewed outwards. This provides more room for your left leg to escape from under the steering wheel when operating the clutch. A quick check on my own Cab 12 suggests moving the steering column bracket 20mm to the right would move the steering wheel far enough away from the handbrake lever to allow your left leg to pass between comfortably. Naturally this would encroach upon your right leg movement, however there's plenty of spare room between the steering wheel and the door.

It's worth noting too that the steering wheel on the Cab 12 is not in line with the seat - it's offset to the left by approx 50mm. In other words it's not centrally between your legs when you're driving. That means swinging the steering column to the right would centralize the steering wheel with the seat - as is the case on the Cab 13.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

However there may be an easier solution we haven't considered - swing the steering column to the right.

Gents, I trialled this mod today on my Cab 12 Ford, and although it's an improvement it's not enough to allow my left leg to escape out from under the steering wheel. Photos below are taken with both feet on the pedals and the steering column bracket moved 25mm to the right. That's about the limit for this mod because the steering wheel is starting to get too close to the door. As you can see my right leg can still fit between the steering wheel and the door when operating the brake, but my left leg is still trapped under the steering wheel by the handbrake when operating the clutch.

What this experiment proves is that I will never be able to extract my left leg out from under the steering wheel when operating the clutch, unless I'm prepared to modify the handbrake and probably the engine cover and dashboard as well. This is entirely pointless when the problem can be solved by simply increasing dX (the distance between the clutch pedal pad and the bottom of the steering wheel) so that my lower leg can fit comfortably between them when operating the clutch. The simplest way to increase dX is to lengthen the steering column, and you can see in pic 5 that it would not require much, perhaps 40mm at the most. Alternatively you could increase dX by setting the clutch pedal 40mm depressed, however you'd need to move the toeplate 40mm forward in order to maintain full pedal travel. This is quite feasible with a bit of sheetmetal work, but my own preference at this stage is to lengthen the steering column. In due course I shall trial this mod and report my findings here.

Cheers,
Tony

[Tony Wheeler]

Here's a pic of the wedge used under the front steering box mount on the Rover armoured car, to adjust for the changed angle of the steering column due to the lowered steering wheel. You'd need something like this under the rear steering box mount if you raised the steering wheel.