Canadian Sherman II in 21AG

[HaroldLukas]

Tried this on the missing lynx forum as well.
Is this tank historically accurate? http://www.geocities.com/oldshermans/woensdrecht.htm

Mike Canaday pointed out that it isn't likely.
Therfore I would like to rephrase the question: Did the canadians use Sherman IIs in NWE (especially prior to March 1945)?

Thanks
Harold

[gcrossley]

Hi,

We did indeed have some in service. Returns for the FGH in 1945 included the following:

Sherman II T149805

Sherman IIC T263313
T269845

There is still plenty of discussion out there on whether the IIC ever existed, and it could well be a typo of IC, but there it is.

This tank was re-painted in 2000 in time for the 55th Anniversary of the Liberation. Hanno had a lot to do with it, and we in the Garrys are proud that our unit was chosen to be represented on this tank.

I don't know if the tank originally served with the Canadians, but I believe it served in the Dutch army after the war, and has the spaced out suspension and addon fenders welded to the hull.

Hanno can probably fill in the details.

I'm pleased to see it is still looking good, as I will be visiting Woensdrecht with some current members of the Garrys (and a few Camerons and Rifles) on 29 April.

Gord

[HaroldLukas]

Gord, first of all a warm welcome when you visit my country (Holland). I hope you'll enjoy the warmth and gratitude we dutch feel for our canadian liberators.

Thanks for your reply. Can you tell me a little bit more about this II? (I wouldn't dare going into the IIc) Do you know what squadron and troop it was in?

Harold

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by gcrossley
Hanno can probably fill in the details.

I'm quoting a few e-mails on the subject off the Sherman Register mailing list. As you can see Gord was the one who really filled in the details.

To: G104@egroups.com
From: Hanno Spoelstra
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 20:42:14 -0000
Subject: [G104] markings of Shermans liberating Woensdrecht in Oct. '44?

Since the 1970s there is a M4A1 Sherman memorial at Woensdrecht, the Netherlands. The tank itself isn't an original relic (ex-Royal Netherlands Army), but nonetheless is a memorial for the Canadian liberators.
It is currently being refurbished, and the markings that are to be applied are open to debate: the volunteers that are carrying out the work, have been told that the South Alberta Regiment (4th Armd. Div.) was involved in the liberation of Woensdrecht. However, an elderly inhabitant is convinced it was the Fort Garry Horse.

Who can tell us which armoured unit liberated Woensdrecht in October 1944?

Which markings should be painted on the M4A1 Sherman?

The Sherman will be painted next weekend, to be ready in time for the unveiling of a commemorative plaque on 5th May, the 55th anniversary of the liberation.

To: G104@egroups.com
From: Hanno Spoelstra
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:34:26 -0000
Subject: [G104] synopsis: Fort Garry Horse Sherman II markings

Thanks for picking up this question so quickly. Below follows a synopsis of all the information I have at hand at the moment. Since we're pressed for time, this is what I will have to put in the mail to the volunteers tomorrow - barring any last minute additions/corrections you might add.

Facts:
1) The regimental history of the Fort Garry Horse mentions 'A' and 'B' Squadrons participating in the liberation of Woensdrecht on Sunday, October 16, 1944. [Source: Chris Johnson]

2) The Sherman that is currently refurbished at Woensdrecht is an M4A1 or Sherman II.

3) According to the regimental records, the Fort Garry Horse had one Sherman II, serving in B Squadron, that survived at least until April/May 1945. Its number is T149805. [Source: Gordon Crossley]

Thus, based on the points listed above, the Sherman at Woensdrecht should best be repainted in the markings of Sherman II, census no. T149805, serving in B Squadron, 10th Armoured Regiment (Fort Garry Horse), 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade.

* Formation sign 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade: gold maple leaf on black-blue-black background on left front and right rear of the hull.
* Unit serial and Arm of Service Sign: white 52 on a red square, underlined by a white bar on right front and left rear of the hull.
* 2nd Senior Regiment, 'B' Sqn: yellow square on left and right turret sides.
* Census number T149805 on left and right hull sides, towards the rear.
* Bridge class sign: black 30 in yellow circle on right side of final drive housing.
* Five pointed white star on turret roof or engine deck (optional). No name will be added, since none appear in any of the FGH archival photos.

To: G104@egroups.com
From: Hanno Spoelstra
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 09:48:12 -0000
Subject: [G104] Fort Garry Horse in action at Woensdrecht

>From CWO Gord Crossley, Regimental Sergeant-Major of the The Fort Garry Horse:

"I can confirm that "A" and "B" Squadron supporting the 4th Canadian Infantry Brigade, entered Woensdrecht on 16 October 1944. For 5 difficult days, the two Squadrons remained under a hail of enemy fire. There is a story in our Regimental history that reads:

"For five days we sat in our tanks in the area, holding Woensdrecht with the infantry, and in this period of time there were very few moments when German shells were not whistling in. A noticeable thing was that the fellows could still laugh at the many amusing things which took place at the time. One incident which the fellows will never forget, was when shortly after the town of Woensdrecht had been captured, the provost came dashing up in a jeep and tacked up a sign on one of the first telephone poles leading into the town, warning the fellows that the town was out of bounds unless on duty and that the looting penalty was death. During the next five days the majority of the buildings were almost completely demolished by heavy German shellfire."

During the same time period, "C" Squadron was holding Hoogerheide.

Casualties were low however, with Tpr R.G Wallis (A Sqn) being killed on 19 October. C Squadron suffered the highest casualties, with Maj. C.W. Fletcher and Sgt. G.V. Jorgenson being killed on 23 October. All are buried in Bergen-op Zoom."

Got to run, so this is all for now.

Hanno

[gcrossley]

Thanks for the post Hanno, I was just looking through my old email messages, and found the following that you had sent me in May 2000.

"Although it would be nice if this was an original wartime tank, it surely is not. It is one of fifty M4A1E9's received through MDAP in 1951/52. Despite the 'field mod' appearance, I can assure you that the spaced-out suspension conversion was carried out in a US Tank Depot.
The Royal Netherlands Army's Sherman tanks were replaced by Centurion tanks during the 1953-1958 time frame (although some soldiered on until 1964 with an Sappers unit).
The Woensdrecht Sherman used to be located on a local army training ground (I have c.1970's pictures of it), until it was recovered from there and put up as a memorial.
The mention that one-third of the Sherman memorials are painted in FGH markings stems from the fact that there are six memorial Shermans in Holland, of which one is an original FGH tank and one other is marked as such."

The Sherman II listed, T149805, is from a Vehicle State of 28 March 1945. It does not appear on the list of vehicles turned in to the Demobilization Depot in Nijmegen in June, July, and November of 1945, so was presumable lost in action or otherwise written off between 28 March and 6 May.

The document does not state what troop it belonged to.

Looking through the remainder of our documents I found four numbers in the same general block identified as follows:

T149808 Sherman V
T149885 Sherman V
T149801 Sherman V DD
T149963 Sherman V DD

Interesting that a II would be only 3 digits away from a V.

We are really looking forward to our visit. I will post our planned itinerary somewhere on this forum in the near future. Perhaps we can meet up with some of you in our travels.

Gord

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by gcrossley
We are really looking forward to our visit. I will post our planned itinerary somewhere on this forum in the near future. Perhaps we can meet up with some of you in our travels.

Gord, thank for the addtional information.

Yes, please let me know the details of your itinerary as I'd like to try to meet up at some point. So you'll be here late April-early May? Busy period! On May 6 or 7 I'll be driving Bill Miller and his father from Zupthen down to Mill to see the Ram Kangaroo memorial. Maybe you could join us?
On May 8 I'll be at Apeldoorn.

Cheers,
Hanno

[gcrossley]

Hi Hanno,

I have sent our planned itinerary to your Sherman Register email.

Gord