Canadian 6pdr anti tank gun early model

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

Well here is a project I am awaiting sourcing missing parts and time for me and my specialist welder to get to work on it slowly rebuilding ready for final restoration . Although I like to try and use all orignal parts and preserve as much original finnish as possible it wil not be possible on this gun due to initial condition .
i have done a lot of the stripping on this gun and well on the way to welding in new metal where old was rotted away etc although still a lot of this work needs doing on trail legs the shields and saddle ,recoil slide are all reduilt .
When i first saw this gun many years back it was one of a number of different guns adorning the base at Portsea that was the school of infantry then taken over by army health in final days before disposal . The gun had been subject to worst possible storage under pine trees and 50 yards from sea front :-( for forty years
I tried for a number of years to recover this gun and others but was hamstrung by changes in staff and attitudes to individuals trying to get these items out of army bases in decline .Suddenly one day while reading a local paper i saw an add from a scrap yard, "guns for sale "and went down and to my amazement they had scrapped most of the guns from the base and this scrap dealer was trying to offload them. i immediatly saw a couple of very sick 25pdr and bofor guns and asked if he had any more he said only a small one and it was around the back of course it was the 6pdr and I imediatly bought it and took it home .
Normally on salt damaged guns i dont restore them as its too much of an issue to restore them back to perfect but made an exception with this one as its so rare being firstly a very early short barrel gun and few 6pdr have survived scrap drives here and this one was reasonably complete .

From the paint remains I could see desert camo under the many layers and as odds are it was a significant gun at the time it was selected to adorn the base I would assume it was a gun shipped direct to troops in North Africa and made its way back from there, local made variants differ in barrel lengh and its doubtful many saw overseas service this one being made in 1941 and one of the approx 1400 guns held by Australia of which approx 500 were local made and 120 usa 57mm m1 guns

The gun had severe rustouts in shield bottoms where it sat near ground on concrete postes and these were cut out and replaced with new steel , the saddle also had rot outs and the trails yet to be fully rebuilt and the two bars for "travelling" the gun . the elevator was present and in good conditon one interesting aspect of salt damge is it attacks spots and leaves other areas perfect the elevator was one such perfect spot as was the complete breach mechainsm and breach ring . The barrel was also sound but sleigh sufferred but can be rebuilt I am in need of a set of sheet dust guards here and may have to make these . The recoil housing was rotted behind one trunion and required replaced new steel and milling and the recoil internals were all gone . lucky I have parts of another two guns in bits and salavaged a new unissied recoil mechanism for this gun from one of them but i need the rear lock nut as well . The sight mount and shutter control that bolts to the elevator was misisng and need this if anyone knows of one out there on a range wreck etc .The saddle is rebuilt and sound but the pivot bush was damaged on stripping by me not detecting a weld and needs replacing as well if anoyone has a bush unit out there .The trails are sound but need some cut and shut repairs all sheilds are now fine after repair but need a lower shield flap off front spaced shield again if cant source original may have to make one when we get that far .i have a lot of spare stores for 6pdr ie shield boxes ,cleaning brushes , hubs, axles ,shield and recoil parts , ammo boxes and packings etc and am more than happy to trade for wanted parts even a spare set of tyres that you all know are fairly hard to get

[Clive_Dakers]

Hi Rod. Any chance of some more pics of the ammo boxes yo have for the 6 pdr? Which ones are they?

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

Clive
I have a few variants some are nice others not so nice its a bit dark to go out to the sheds tonight and cold /wet

ammo tins I have from memory are
six round tin with cardboard tubes in airtight screw down lid

four round tins with cardboard tubes and safety clips /tit protectors in standard ammo box

I think there is a smaller version of the six rounds tin as well but in damaged condition i will have a look and see what other shots i have on file now if not you will have to wait till i get a chance to take them
I know one shot already posted has some four round tins visible on one trail leg see below

[Clive_Dakers]

I'm a collector and moderator on BOCN. Any chance of some pics that I can add to the data base?

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/consol...rs-t27615.html

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

well clive it seems we have a mutual interest I believe in getting the gun and getting all the related tools and boxes related to the gun which is often far rarer than the gun itself and naturally i chase as many original markngs as possible .
I am always keen to trade and currently am after a nice pak36 ammo tin with excellent cardboard storage tubes intact as well as cleaning rods for same gun and some misc Shield spares .

I am more than happy to further and help any collector site thats promoting collecting as well as happy to deal and exchange surplus. i have always had a keen interest in rare packagings all my guns have orignal period ammo containers
ie 2pdr has wartime local made ammo tins red and green , canadian ammo tins , even post war naval landing ammo tns that were final production also used in sub cal
6pdr as already stated
17pdr usual two round tins and airtight cans
3.7" two round tins
4.2'' mortar original period boxes with stencilling and rare back pack three round carriers
3'' mortar wood and steel round boxes ,canvaz carry packs etc etc .
will attach a couple of shots of recently sorted boxes been in sheds sorting last few days as still unpacking from moving across state 480 tons of gear and building sheds etc you may like to email me direct and discuss this further
regards
Rod

[Clive_Dakers]

Just a few of of mine.

[2nd AIF]

PM on its way to you Rod

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

clive thats a nice display would have taken some effort to move all that lot i stopped doing such displays simply logistics and risk of damage each time but was a fun time ,now people come here for a look . you have some nice items there and good to see soemone taking the effort even on modern containers as they are gone so quickly is that a set of 4.2" tubes in carrier i see there and the cardboard tubes in the bofor box are they wartime ?
regards
rod

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

okay clive been in shed this morning for you and seems i can load shots on this due to my limited pc skills wil have to find another way note all ammo is empty and in accordance with local laws in case anyone thinks he is a crusader an issue i believe with these public forums

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

okay clive think i can get this to fly
attached shots are as best i can manage and was not easy as six pounder stuff is stacked around 5.5" gun stuff and italian 75mm aa m15 etc
shots below as earlier stated all ammo is empty and in accordance with licence conditions in case anyone gets scared out there :-)

first shot shows interior of a six round airtight two screw tin with rounds in place and safety caps for primers ,second shot shows tins from outside next is four round tin open showing round storage tubes refer earlier shot on trail of these and next is lid labels and last a four round tin in rather sad shape with single screw down locking lid

regards Rod

[Clive_Dakers]

Originally Posted by Rod

stacked around 5.5" gun stuff and italian 75mm aa m15 etc

STOPPIT :P


Can you tell me what the box numbers are?

The Mortar tubes are 3", for the B.166, it takes 2 carriers in total.
The 24 Bofors tubes in the C216 are all '43 dated, different manufacturers, I have 3 rounds too.

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

clive sounds good on the bofor tubes they are not common here wartime ,shame they are 3" the duals i am after some 4.2" like that here 3' 'are mostly in three round carriers two per box

okay as you seem to be keen on box numbers here are a few belwo never really loked at them before in that detail

all care no responsibility for errors as some ar hard to read

6pdr four round c263 mk1
6pdr six round c264 1 as and s 1942
6pdr four round c265 11 1942
17pdr flat tin cc323 1 1944
17pdr sealed tin two round m203 b/1 1943???
17pdr proj box botom marked 18pdr LP11 soasume a reworked 18pdr box
3" wood boxes with either rope or wire handles b162
4.2" b176
bofor c219 1940
2pdr c207

hope this helps

regards
rod

[Clive_Dakers]

Rod, if you click on the links you'll see what I'm trying to do on BOCN is get a picture and description of every type of box that I can. I'm sure I'll be able to imortalise your collection for prosperity

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/consol...rs-t27615.html

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

well that may not be long lol here the federal government is not very helpful to collectors after many years fighting local state authorities we have a good rapor going and reasonably decent laws but the federal powers especially customs and I suspect the federal police are out to get us all to feather their own nests on guize of potential threats to society etc making ridiculous conditions to import items which I fear is the start of bad thngs to come . I was in court with customs last year and probably will be again soon as they seem to have no issue in giving us a consistent hard time changing the rules and making up silly terms that risk my licences on every import .I am recently bogged down in fighting for common sense in import permit issueing for collectibles they are using the worst of everyones standards and applying them to us now . ie recent issues is they want all artillery shells quartered to show they are empty and want artillery to have all covers welded and other actions done when it is obscolete and I can own it here working and have police support to import historical items .
if everyone keeps lobbying the attorney general there is a chance it may come better ie import on a simple b709 from police but I have been in a fight with them consistently over imports for last 30 years and they have had their minions do many bad thngs to me and my gear with no accountability and I am saying this so you understand I cant spend all my time helping you as preserving the collection and fighting these clowns for common scence is my priority to protect the collection and improve it for all .


I can understand your wish to imporve your sight and I will offer you as much help as I can but there will be limits with above battles always on the go .as well I want to enjoy collecting and lifes other pleasures . I dont back down to people in power out of control and has been a fun ride to date and will be until federally they recognize collectors of pre1950 weapons are not a threat but an asset . many people who come and see the collection are first amazed at it and it has been my lifes work, but then are equally amazed at how I get no government support in fact the opposite

Before myself and the police understood each other I had 24 raids (where I dont invite them ) and gun to my head twice such is the paranoia on these items even recently with me being a police advisor I still suffered a recent wrongful arrest and said to the officer if this is how you treat your freinds hate to see what you do to your enemies lol nothing came of it and police are generally pretty good I even had them as witness in my recent court case with customs and that arrest issue was just one police officer out of her depth

Anyway enough ranting just painting you a picture so you understand i cant devote myself solely to your web site this site was a big move for me and I enjoy it but it does knock time out the day .

I think the authorities are in the proces of imortalzing me for prosperity already I know they call me Mr B and its not my surname lol:-(

finally a wise fellow collector said we never own these items we are merley custodians for future generations who pay for the pleasure of looking after an item and if we do a good job it passes to the next person with a possible profit, guranteeing its preservation for posperity . I myself know when I die i if the collection survives past me then it was worthwhile and the wife can bunge jump off the auction proceeds lol :-) or make it an even bigger collection as it seems to be self perpetuating she collects ww1 German spiked helmets and has over 500 and is getting bored and looking at guns now
if you search Peter Flahavins site on our pacific adventures you wil also see another side of relic hunting i started him in hs jungle touring and was also a great fun thng i want to go back to when I am finished with current projects

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Rod

....

When i first saw this gun many years back it was one of a number of different guns adorning the base at Portsea that was the school of infantry then taken over by army health in final days before disposal.
...
I tried for a number of years to recover this gun and others but was hamstrung by changes in staff and attitudes to individuals trying to get these items out of Army bases in decline.
...

Tell me about it! For a decade the little provincial rifle association with whom I used to shoot had warm and cooperative relations with the successive management at an isolated (but essential) Army base. The military doesn't shoot 1000yds for training except for the snipers, but for 2 decades the grounds staff kept mowing the grass and levelling the firing points just for us. Then the newly arrived Station Warrant Officer got a knot in his face about these civilians coming onto his camp, reminding him of Canadian Forces Administration Order 50-11 and 50-16, and he shut down the range. That SOB put up such an effective resistence that the association activated Plan B and emptied the bank accounts to buy 1 1/2 sq miles of grazing land for its own 1200yd rifle range. He got posted out and the grounds crew kept on mowing the grass.

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

yes well there is good and bad in everythng we have to look beyond the individual and what is best for us at the time
you seem to have settled somewhere permanent and have control so indirectly he may have benefiitted you from it happening again by the next one like that .

Our federal customs are just as silly I ie can own it here workng , police in this state have no objection to import and condition but customs demand vandalizing it sick but part of life we can but fight on :-)
regards
Rod

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Rod

yes well there is good and bad in everythng we have to look beyond the individual and what is best for us at the time
you seem to have settled somewhere permanent and have control so indirectly he may have benefiitted you from it happening again by the next one like that .

Our federal customs are just as silly I ie can own it here workng , police in this state have no objection to import and condition but customs demand vandalizing it sick but part of life we can but fight on :-)
regards
Rod

We did look upon this fellow as a catalyst. The association had been able to invest several years' of windfall income and were making double-digit annual tax-free interest, but the tide was turning and progressively all the associations were having their separate troubles getting time on military ranges.

In the end, we bought 4 'quarter sections of land in a N/S row with 2 more on an off side. The club built its own 1200yd rifle range. There are no neighbours or landlords to make up silly restrictions. The provincial justice department made every effort to not be interested in what we were doing. And it is arguably a very difficult range to read the wind and shoot consecutive easy bullseyes.

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

well sounds like you have settled but still not happy with them maybe a bit of an atatck on fellow is due by club saying how silly they are making you move or an attempt to buy th earmy range if you miss it so badly as many are downsizing and being sold off here so assume same world over
regards'
rod ,