Truck ID Please

[Bill Murray]

I should know what this is (it is American) but I cnnot pin it down.
It looks like a 4X2 version of the Mack or Federal searchlight carrier truck but they were 6X4.
Any ideas??
Cheers
Bill

[cliff]

looking through the observers fighting directory it is very similar to the 5-6 ton Utility line (FWD HST-COE) but these were 4X4 and also had a lower bonnet line then what is showing in the Pic. Otherwise could it be a GMC-AFX 4X2 COE with the searchlight type double cab fitted?

Hmmm May have to give this more thought But I do not think it is a Mack or Federal but a 4 to 6 ton rating is entirely possible.

cheers
Cliff

[gordon]

In Fred Crismon's excellent "US Military Wheeled Vehicles" book is the cab on a Federal model 75-131 which is a 1.5 ton truck but obviously a lot lighter than the photo. Not a crew cab.

It matches the full profile of the front fender (note how the lower front edge of the fender is squarish - most others are well-rounded) the horizontal split of the hood line, and even the square front bumper style.

There is an even more similar crew cab on the federal 75K131 searchlight truck but that has bigger cage type wheels despite being just a 3 ton rating.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I will post a pic or two of GMC 'crewcab' trucks: can anyone read the census number please? I immediately thought of a 1942ish rebuild of a GMC AFWX-354 searchlight truck. These were rebuiilt by say GM Limited in Preston, Lancs and could have a shortened chassis.

[Lynn Eades]

I'm only a learner, but isnt that front wheel a clue? Like Diamond T or International?

[cliff]

Originally posted by Lynn Eades
I'm only a learner, but isnt that front wheel a clue? Like Diamond T or International?

Yes you are right it is a clue and could be the deciding factor in some ID's. Trouble is Mack used a similar setup as did a lot of the US truck makers for that size vehicle.

Of course the real bit of identifying material is the grill and that is covered. Bill should contact the Photographer and get him to take the pic again without the clutter in it this time.

The other thing to note is the lack of panel lines on the nice shaped front which gives me the impression it may well be a Federal as most of them did not have the panel lines which meant multiple panels to make up the front.

Cheers
Cliff

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The ex-French contract GMCs were rebuilt circa 1942 as obsolete..I have never found yet as to what they were rebuilt as.

[Bill Murray]

OK guys, after an hour or so of perusing Crismons book, several of Bart's books and some other reference materiel, I am calling this a Federal. Could be 39 or 40, they looked almost identical.

At this point, I cannot pinpoint the exact model as reference materiel on Federals is very scarce. How it got that obviously military style body is also unknown to me. The crew cab is prototypically one used on the searchlight carriers and may have been transferred by one of those British coachbuilders. The rear body looks very "official military" as well and reminds me of some bodies used for supporting artillery units.

A nice mystery in any case and I will keep looking and hope you guys do as well. One thing I need to do is puruse my Wheels & Tracks collection as I would bet Bart probably ran across this one at some time. I really need to spend a marathon weekend scanning those magazines but as I have all of them it will take a hell of a long time.
Cheers

Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I know it is not much help but the last issue has that Index. There are no Federals in my Census List that would relate although Mid-East numbers are not included of course.

[Lynn Eades]

What ever it is, it looks rather pretty to me (in a different way to the "heavy artillery" on that other thread, of course)

[Oliver Missing]

Courtesy : Lorenzo Tonioli.

Another Federal ? in Russian service !
Note weird frontwheel and position of passenger.
Regards,
Oliver, www.o5m6.de

[Bill Murray]

Oliver:
Thanks for a most interesting photo of the Federal!!

I have stared at the photo, used my magnifying glass and still cannot figure out that front area. I cannot really believe that is the front wheel of the truck as it is totally out of proportion to everything else in the photo. Then, there is the odd head of what looks like a German Shepard dog imposed on the photo.
Does the supplier of the photo to you have any additional information??

Also, while I am here, do you intend to ever cover the passenger cars supplied to the USSR by the Allies? I know they got some Willys of 1939/1940 vintage and I think also some British Austins
Would be nice to see and have documented.
Cheers
Bill

[Bill Murray]

Oliver:
Here is a photo of one of those Russian Willys, then as a beutewagen captured by the Germans and used by the SS
Bill

[Lynn Eades]

May be we are just looking at the backing plate and wheel cylinder/bisector ?

[Bill Murray]

OK guys:
I am not making this up, but the photo fascinates me and I have blown it up, divided it into sections etc. etc.
My thoughts as follows.
It is in Russia, it seems to be in a field.
The "passenger" it seems to me is sitting on some sort of agricultural implement seat like the old time stuff had, a steel bucket.
The passenger seems to be behind some sort of cultivating wheel as opposed to that object being part of the truck.
A reach I will admit, especially given the quality of the photo, but if one has imagination the very blurry object in the foreground could almsot be taken for the back and neck of a horse.
And then, there is the dog, of course.
Any other thoughts??
Edit: With a good editing program, you can certainly see what I would describe as hairs standing up on the body and the "mane" of the object in the foreground. Also, not the cool "Russian Notek" lights on the truck. Looks like they cut a coffee can in half and mounted it on the headlamps.
Cheers
Bill

[Keith Webb]

Looking at the photograph from a photographer's point of view with thousands of hours spent developing black and white films this looks to me like a processing problem which can produce a solarised effect such as this, evidenced by the front wheel appearing in the negative, the light coloured tyre making it look larger than it really is.

Film processed in the field was often done under the most primitive conditions, and usually with begged or stolen film and chemicals.

[Bill Murray]

Good observation Keith:
And...being that the photo is apparently Russian in origin, could have been produced under "extremely" primitive conditions.
Does the word "juxtaposition" come into play here??
Could it have been a multiple image problem?
Bill

[Keith Webb]

Hi Bill

It doesn't look like multiple images to me, more like a simple case of solarisation - if you've ever seen some of Man Ray's photographs you'll know what I mean.

The dark halo deliniating the effect in the sky is typical of solarisation. Usually it's caused by the fixer not reaching all of the negative. In the case of the Man Ray pics I think it was done by briefly re-exposing the photographic print to light when in the developer before fixing.

[Oliver Missing]

Bill, Keith,
thanks a lot for bringing some light into this mystery.
Do you have further info on LL passenger cars, Bill ?
I once read on the web that one of Stalin's cars was a Packard sedan...
Oliver.

[Gunner]

I think Lynn is on to something. Could they be repairing trhe front wheel? Looks like a backing plate and wheel cylinder cover to me.

2 cents! Cheers, Mike

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Gunner
I think Lynn is on to something. Could they be repairing trhe front wheel? Looks like a backing plate and wheel cylinder cover to me.

2 cents! Cheers, Mike

One of the effects of solarisation is to produce a "negative" look - this can be seen in some of the light patches under the truck which should be dark; likewise the front wheel looks strange because it is partly in the negative, emphasising the spokes.

I've inverted part of the image so you can see what I mean - although a bit too light, the spokes of the wheel are evident.

[Bill Murray]

By God Watson, I think you've got it (or something like that).

So a regular Federal truck it is with a rather botched job of developing the photo.

As a further comment, I have evidence, photographic and anecdotal from web sites and a collection of prewar Finnish and Swedish motoring magazines that Federal trucks were marketed in Norway, Finland and the Baltic countries so those areas may be candidates for the source of the truck. While they may have been sold in other European countries, I cannot back this up with evidence.

I have cast a wider net on the first photo I posted but have not had any responses yet.
Thanks again Keith.
Bill

[Bill Murray]

Oliver:
Just to keep myself honest, I have shot myself in the foot once again.
The Willys photo I posted is of a 1939 model and therefore not very likely a lend lease car unless the US sent used passenger vehicles which I doubt. I have read that we sent used tanks but that is another matter. I will continue to research the passenger car issue.
Bill

[Gunner]

Thanks for the education, Keith... I don't know enough about camera's to have understood that until you 'fixed' the image.

This internet thing is a real boon, everyday I learn more stuff!

Cheers! Mike

[gordon]

... is the cage type wheel I mentioned further up on one of the 3 ton rated trucks

You unbolt the wheel at the rim, leaving the centre on the hub, though the photo damage does distort it a little.

Gordon

[nuyt]

please. Bill, do you know more about the circumstances of the picture, year and location, not to mention the unit or army?
It seems the signs on the hood/bonnet are Hebrew or am I completely wrong? If so, is this an Israeli vehicle? If it is it could be some sort of hybrid/converted/captured truck....
Kind regards,
Nuyt

[Bill Murray]

Hi Nuyt:
I got it off Ebay some time back and cannot retrieve the original bid information, sad to say. I was in a hurry and just grabbed the photo.

It would appear certain that the photo was taken in North Africa, the Middle East or even possibly on Crete or Malta or less likely, Greece. I say this only because of the style of uniform.

From this forum, there is a sort of agreement it is a Federal, the consensus on several others is that it is definitely a Federal and that is still my opinion.

While I cannot say for sure that such a Federal model was not taken up by any known military unit as a military truck, I tend to think it was an impressed/confiscated truck from possibly one of the countries I listed above and somehow found it's way to where the photo was taken.

The deeper part of the mystery is that it is LHD meaning generally it is ex US or ex Western Europe/Scandinavia but it most definitely has what I would call a British style body.

As best I remember, I got it off eBay.de from their militaria section 1918-1945 and although the sellers routinely misidentify what they are selling as regards type etc. they all seem to be of that era.

Give me a few days as I am now scrounging through my rather extensive civilian vehicles archives as well as many auto/truck magazine collections I have of the 1935-1945 period from Scandinavia and a couple of other countries. I would be fairly happy if I could jjust pin down the exact model and where it might have originated from.
Cheers
Bill

[Lynn Eades]

Why do you say this is left hand drive? I assumed that the vehicle is stationery. What is the little gizmo sticking out from the front of the grill? and what are we looking at below the tray?

[cliff]

Originally posted by Lynn Eades
Why do you say this is left hand drive? I assumed that the vehicle is stationery. What is the little gizmo sticking out from the front of the grill? and what are we looking at below the tray?

what truck and picture are we talking about?

cheers
Cliff

[Lynn Eades]

Good question. I thought we were talking about the ugly one! (flat screen) but now I realize you were back to the Beau at the start of the thread(the split screen whose grill is hidden). Maybe Keith can "enhance" that one too?