Tommy gun in the ETO

[florprien]

Helo friends: i´m an argentine collector of ww2 canadian equipment, I alrady have a bren, sten, lee enfiend nº4mk1*, now i´m finding a thompson. I wanted a M1A1, but i can´t find one of this. Can somebody let my know if the canadians soldiers used the 1928m1 after the normandy landing?
Thankyou very much. best regards
My best wishes to the geof friend´s and family in this difficult time

[Ed Storey]

No, for the Canadian Army, Thompsons in Italy, Stens in NW Europe.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Take Ed's word as the truth. He is a recognized expert in Canadian militaria, and published author on 1937 Pattern Webbing. He's also ruggedly handsome and once upon a time he was my boss. (Oh wait. Forget what I said about his good looks. He's not my boss anymore.)

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Take Ed's word as the truth. He is a recognized expert in Canadian militaria, and published author on 1937 Pattern Webbing. He's also ruggedly handsome and once upon a time he was my boss. (Oh wait. Forget what I said about his good looks. He's not my boss anymore.)

Terry..now that you added that caveat,don't forget,don't lead with your lip...Ed is still bigger than you...
Mwhahahahaha!!
I think we have a guest coming up from the south in January ,and look forward to catching up on all your Christmas presents at Gracies..Some time in January as far as I know..
Alex

[gary_bath_jr]

Not to be a doubting thomas here but if you read "Tip of the Spear" by Lieutenant-Colonel Bernd Horn and Michel Wyczynski you will see on page 110 the First Canadian Parachute Battalion Training with a Thompson, then on page 176 a picture of glider pilots being evacuated by 1 can Para in and the man on the left is holding a Thompson. As a side note you will find some Universal Carriers on page 192 and 210.

Gary

[Gerry McGinty]

Gary, it has to be said that in the same book, on page 144, there is a list of weapons used by the 'paras' and while including the different marks of Sten, it does not mention Thompsons.

I would suggest that hard and fast rules regarding Thompsons in Italy and Stens in NW Europe should be treated with caution as firstly, the Commandos usually used Thompsons rather than Stens and secondly there are references (eg. "One Night in June" by Kevin Shannon & Stephen Wright - page 35) that point to the Glider Pilot Regiment being given a very wide choice of what weapon they would prefer to use - in fact the pilot in question chose a Bren as his personal weapon!!!

Hope this helps

Gerry

[John McGillivray]

Here is a photo of troops from the Queen’s Own Rifles of Canada on patrol near Nijmegen, Netherlands, 22 January 1945. The lead soldier is carring a Thompson MG.

http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/pam_a...-v6&back_url=()

[Gerry McGinty]

John, Great picture which really proves a point.
Very interestingly, the fourth figure in the column looks to be carrying a Mark II Sten! If this is the case, it is a great example of why we should be open-minded in this topic.

Regards

Gerry

[gary_bath_jr]

My thoughts as well, I was trying to show that there was evidence that tommy's were used.

Gary

[Jordan Baker]

I remember talking with a few RHLI vets about the use of Thompson SMG's. Early on in the war I was told that they were lucky if the Platoon Sgt/Mjr had one and that was it.

The other vet said he had one with him in NWE, interestingly he stated he got rid of the butt stock to save space. Sadly he couldn't provide much more detail. Im not sure if he was a driver as to me that would make most sense.

So far I haven't really found any other evidence the RHLI had them but then I really haven't been looking for anything other then what pops up while searching for something else.

[Ed Storey]

Guys, no wonder the average collector and restorer is so confused, you all keep focusing on the half-percent anomalies! The fact is and remains that the Sten was used by the Canadian Army in North-west Europe and the Thompson was used in Italy. Sure there is a picture of a patrol in the winter and the lead person has a Thompson and okay some old Canadian Vet said he had one, that is well and good but the answer is that the Sten was the Machine Carbine used by the Army in NW Europe. Stop muddying the waters by dredging up exceptions.

There is also the infamous photograph of a member of the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion carrying a M1 Garand. Interesting photograph, again an anomaly but it was fuel for the fire for every 1 Can Para Re-enactor in the US to use it as an excuse to arm himself with an M1 instead of a No. 4. Nice photograph, but wrong conclusion.

Once again I hearken to tables of organization and equipment in which the Sten is THE machine Carbine for the Army in NW Europe and this has to do with supply which simply means, ammunition and parts. A member of Canadian in the Army in NW Europe in WWII would not be entitled to nor issued with a Thompson. If one were procured, then ammunition would be a problem as .45 cal ACP ammunition would not be forthcoming up through the Canadian supply chain.

If you are restoring a vehicle or putting together a uniform impression for NW Europe, then the Sten is the only correct option and answer.

So ends the lesson!

[gary_bath_jr]

So Ends the Lesson??? HHMMMMM

[servicepub (RIP)]

I wish I had seen this yesterday as I would have said everything Ed said - but not as subtlely.
Canadian policy was Thompson in the AAI and the Sten in NWE. I feel for the idiot who carries a weapon that is not supported as the provision of parts would be impossible and ammo next to non-existent. I also think that carrying the extra pounds for the sake of a contemporary 'look cool factor' wouldn't be wotrth it after a few kilometres.
That a soldier in the Airborne carries a Thompson is moot. All Canadian Airborne troops came under the 6th (British) AB Division and the British may have had a separate policy.
Clive

[Gerry McGinty]

"If you are restoring a vehicle or putting together a uniform impression for NW Europe, then the Sten is the only correct option and answer."

I am thinking of making a small diorama of the Queen’s Own Rifles of Canada on patrol near Nijmegen, Netherlands, 22 January 1945 one carrying a Thompson and the fourth in line carrying a Sten - do you think that this is realistic?

Regards
Gerry

[Lynn Eades]

I'll start this with "I know nothing about the history of what actually happened",Apart from respecting Ed for his expertise in this area, It just make sense, what he says. Basically the military stands and falls on disapline. I Imagine that "Standing orders" precluded a soldier from carrying anything but his issued kit. If Thompsons were not issued, then were did they come from? about the only way to have one is to take it from the enemy, after he had taken it from his enemy.
I find it annoying when guys want to hang every kind of 50 cal browning all over every carrier. Yes, I'm sure these things happened occasionally, but in the overall scheme of things, as Ed says, these events are anomalies.
I see it in the best of museums,(I havent been to many, but one doesn't have to visit many) where things are displayed, perported to be the truth, but in reality they are not.
On the other side of this Gerry, our fathers and grandfathers fought, so that you could freely exercise your artistic license.
Do that which the man in the mirror is comfortable with.

[Gerry McGinty]

Hi Lynn
I was just having a laugh - of course I respect Ed’s expertise.
I am just fascinated by the anomalous use of weapons in WWII - British paras and SAS using M1 carbines, SAS use of Italian Beretta SMGs etc. and I love to see references such as we have been discussing.

By the way if anyone has stories of refs. Of this kind, please contact me (online or off) so that I can add them to my file.

Best regards

Gerry

[Jordan Baker]

yes Stens for NWE were the rule. I didn't put that in my posting as I thought it would be rather a given from the first couple of postings. I only wanted to pass on some more info and that was that. You only have to look at my carrier resto to see that I do it buy the book.

On a related note. I was under the assumption that American made armoured vehicles came with all or most of the equipment as issued in the US. IE, the US tanker helmets, .50 and .30cal mgs and Thompson SMG's and that this was how a lot of this stuff made it into the system.

(pls read all this with a lighthearded frame of mind, not trying to start anything or add fuel to a fire)

[Murray]

When 1st. Cdn. Div. moved from Italy to NWE were their Thompsons taken away and were they re-issued with Stens? I remember my Dad saying he had a Thompson from 1943 through the end of the war, which means he would have taken it with him to NWE.

[cletrac (RIP)]

My cousin, Fred Abbott, had a Thompson with the "mafia clip" that he picked up in Sicily. He used it in Italy but when he ran over a land mine just after Cassino, the gun and drum mag disappeared. When he got out of the hospital he was sent to Holland and was issued a Sten. He had nothing good to say about the Sten when comparing it to the Thompson. I can see what he meant after I fired both types. You can hold the Tommy Gun on target but the Sten will climb to the right. As far as ammo goes, with the Sten you could easily grab a few 9mm rounds off a dead German but not so with the 45 ACP.

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Gerry McGinty

"If you are restoring a vehicle or putting together a uniform impression for NW Europe, then the Sten is the only correct option and answer."

I am thinking of making a small diorama of the Queen’s Own Rifles of Canada on patrol near Nijmegen, Netherlands, 22 January 1945 one carrying a Thompson and the fourth in line carrying a Sten - do you think that this is realistic?

Regards
Gerry

Gerry, as a reenactor and collector I've been either in the thick of or on the outskirts of many discussions regarding authenticity such as whether Gebirgsjager reenactors should wear beards or should Marines carry the Boys ATR or the Johnson 1941. I once put a Nazi flag on my CMP and used it in a reenactment in a "under new Management" scenario. There are those that prefer the cookie cutter impression...I personally consider that a little tame. The fact that they weren't part of someone's scale of issue is a specious argument and ignores significant events in history. U.S Special Forces in Vietnam sometimes carried AK47's among other non-issue weapons. In the First World War Canadian troops by the droves chucked their Ross rifles away and used Lee-Enfields they gleaned from the battlefield. If you wish to portray what the "standard" soldier looked like, then by all means carry a Sten with your blancoed webbing and a clean shaven face. If you want to show what a soldier looked like after weeks in combat, then by all means do that also. I used to send a Warning Order out to my guys to stop shaving a week before an event in order to authentically present what a soldier in combat looked like. My humble opinion is that if you have historical evidence of an event, such as a picture, then "fill yer boots" my friend!

Derek.

[Ed Storey]

You are kidding, right? Stop shaving a week before an event! Have a quick look at the images held within the Faces of War site that is hosted by the Library and Archives Canada. You will not find many Canadian soldiers who are not clean shaven, shaving was and still is SOP.

Instead of trying to portray what you think is 'cool', why not do a bit a of research and present to the public what was accurate and correct.

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

You are kidding, right? Stop shaving a week before an event! Have a quick look at the images held within the Faces of War site that is hosted by the Library and Archives Canada. You will not find many Canadian soldiers who are not clean shaven, shaving was and still is SOP.

Instead of trying to portray what you think is 'cool', why not do a bit a of research and present to the public what was accurate and correct.

You misquote me sir, I never used the word 'cool'. I've seen several photos of scraggly faced Canadian soldiers over the years, the most well known of which is the picture taken on August 11, 1943 of Sgt. H E Cooper of the 48th Highlanders of Canada which was widely distributed in the press. If you feel the need to quote me again in the future, "historically accurate" would be more appropriate.

Derek.

[Mk1rceme]

My Grandfather had a Thompson while driving ambulances for 1MAC in Sicily/Italy, and after the creation of the RCEME where he spent his days with 1div, 3bde infantry workshop. He was able to keep it until he got the word that he was going to France.

If I recall correctly, he was issued the Thompson in England shortly before leaving for Sicily. He said you had to be very protective over the Thompson...if you put it down and turned your back for a second, it would be gone.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by sapper740

You misquote me sir, I never used the word 'cool'. I've seen several photos of scraggly faced Canadian soldiers over the years, the most well known of which is the picture taken on August 11, 1943 of Sgt. H E Cooper of the 48th Highlanders of Canada which was widely distributed in the press. If you feel the need to quote me again in the future, "historically accurate" would be more appropriate.

Derek.

. . . did it ever occur to you Derek, that Sgt. Cooper may have been a ‘Pioneer’ . . .

The photo you refer to is attached (Source: LAC)

Cheers

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner

. . . did it ever occur to you Derek, that Sgt. Cooper may have been a ‘Pioneer’ . . .

The photo you refer to is attached (Source: LAC)

Cheers

No, it never occurred to me because if he was a Pioneer he wouldn't have caught heck, as it was reported, from his superiors for having the beard.

Derek.

[Ed Storey]

I did not misquote you at all, I was politely stating that your misguided and wrong interpretation of what you think a Canadian soldier looked like during the Second World War is based what you think is cool to impress your re-enactor friends and not what was the norm during that period.

Did it not even dawn on you that you are basing your impression on a very small percentage of images of bearded Canadian soldiers held in vast archival collection of material? That alone should have been enough, but from what I see from your previous post, I suspect that you are on some 'bearded crusade'. Perhaps you can do us all a favour and actually find for us and post some of the other images of bearded Canadians during the Second World War that you apparently may have researched, because right now I have my doubts you can, but you may surprise me.

Did none of the members of your 're-enactment unit' question your bizzare no shaving request, or are they as blatantly mis-informed about the people and the period as you are?

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I did not misquote you at all, I was politely stating that your misguided and wrong interpretation of what you think a Canadian soldier looked like during the Second World War is based what you think is cool to impress your re-enactor friends and not what was the norm during that period.

Did it not even dawn on you that you are basing your impression on a very small percentage of images of bearded Canadian soldiers held in vast archival collection of material? That alone should have been enough, but from what I see from your previous post, I suspect that you are on some 'bearded crusade'. Perhaps you can do us all a favour and actually find for us and post some of the other images of bearded Canadians during the Second World War that you apparently may have researched, because right now I have my doubts you can, but you may surprise me.

Did none of the members of your 're-enactment unit' question your bizzare no shaving request, or are they as blatantly mis-informed about the people and the period as you are?

Yes it did dawn on me that I'm basing my impression on a very small percentage of images of Canadian soldiers. On that point we completely agree. To my mind there are two impressions that we can present to the public; the parade square soldier and the soldier who just spent a week fighting Hubert Meyer's 12th SS. Neither impression is incorrect, just a short cameo of the life of a Canadian soldier at various points during his service to his country. We put on a lot of show battles here for the public and I always thought that the reenactor next to me with the polished boots, freshly pressed uniform, and clean shaven face looked way out of place whereas my guys with the dirty boots, wrinkled uniform, and scraggly faces looked more authentic, but that's just my opinion...and a few others. In any event, I'm sorry my position on this matter disturbs you so much but I'm not going to stop accurately portraying what a Canadian soldier looked like after a week in combat. Also this will be my last response to this thread as I'm not the least bit interested in pissing matches.

respectfully, Derek

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by florprien

Helo friends: i´m an argentine collector of ww2 canadian equipment, I alrady have a bren, sten, lee enfiend nº4mk1*, now i´m finding a thompson. I wanted a M1A1, but i can´t find one of this. Can somebody let my know if the canadians soldiers used the 1928m1 after the normandy landing?
Thankyou very much. best regards
My best wishes to the geof friend´s and family in this difficult time

There is an excellent, and timely! article titled 'The "Tommy's" Thompson' written by Martin Pegler in the March 2011 issue of the American Rifleman. It only deals with the Thompson in British use but it unequivocably states that Thompsons were only issued to:
Initially, Home Guard Special Units, then Commando Units (5 in total), and finally regular Home Guard units. The Brits ordered 514,000 Thompsons of all types but by April 1942 only 100,000 had arrived which led to the Sten SMG being rushed into production.

"Sten guns became a priority for issue to all European Theatre of Operations (ETO) Commonwealth Troops with the exception of the Commando brigades who were mostly supplied with Thompsons--and wanted to keep them" Martin Pegler

CHEEMO! Derek.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by sapper740

There is an excellent, and timely! article titled 'The "Tommy's" Thompson' written by Martin Pegler in the March 2011 issue of the American Rifleman. It only deals with the Thompson in British use but it unequivocably states that Thompsons were only issued to:
Initially, Home Guard Special Units, then Commando Units (5 in total), and finally regular Home Guard units. The Brits ordered 514,000 Thompsons of all types but by April 1942 only 100,000 had arrived which led to the Sten SMG being rushed into production.

"Sten guns became a priority for issue to all European Theatre of Operations (ETO) Commonwealth Troops with the exception of the Commando brigades who were mostly supplied with Thompsons--and wanted to keep them" Martin Pegler

CHEEMO! Derek.

WE had them in Italy..


I talked to Smokey Smith a few years ago at the war memorial on 11 November,in Ottawa, and asked him if he preferred the Tommy gun over the Sten..He said..If it wasn't for the Tommy gun..you and I wouldn't be talking today..
..I loved it.."
Here is his story..

Ernest(Smokey) Smith VC
Birthdate: 3 May 1914
Website: http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm
Category: Military

Ernest Alvia 'Smokey' Smith, VC, CD, was born in New Westminster, B.C. in 1914 and educated in elementary and technical schools there. He left his work with a contracting firm to enlist in the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada in March 1940, joining the regiment overseas a few months later. He was a private when he won the Victoria Cross at the Savio River in Italy on Oct. 21-22, 1944.

The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada were the spearhead of the attack across the river, which torrential rain had caused to rise six feet in five hours, making it impossible to get tanks and anti-tank guns across to support the rifle companies.

The right forward company was suddenly counter-attacked by three Panzer tanks, supported by self-propelled guns and some 30 infantry. Private Smith led his PIAT (projector, infantry, anti-tank) group of two men across an open field and left one man on the weapon. Crossing the road, Private Smith obtained another PIAT. An enemy tank attacked and wounded the man on the first PIAT. Smith fired his own and put the tank out of action. German infantry jumped from the tank and attacked him but Smith drove them back with his tommy gun. Obtaining more tommy magazines which had been abandoned in a ditch, Private Smith steadfastly held his position, and later gave aid to his wounded comrade.

"No further immediate attack developed and as a result, the battalion was able to consolidate the bridgehead position so vital to the success of the whole operation, which led to the eventual capture of San Giorgio Di Cesena and a further advance to the Ronco River," reads the citation in part.

'Smokey' Smith left the army for a short time after the war, but rejoined and served until August 1964, when he was released with the rank of sergeant. On August 3, 2005, Smokey Smith passed away in Vancouver as Canada's last surviving recipient of the Victoria Cross; Canada's highest award for valour.

In 1996, Smokey Smith was named a Member the Order of Canada.

In 2002 he received the Order of British Columbia.

His honours, decorations and medals include: The Victoria Cross, the Order of Canada, the Order of British Columbia, 1939-45 Star, Italy Star, Defense Medal, Canadian Voluntary Service Medal, 1939-45 War Medal, Queen Elizabeth Coronation Medal, Canada Centennial Medal, Queen Elizabeth II Silver Jubilee Medal, Canada 125 Medal, Queen’s Golden Jubilee Medal and the Canadian Forces Service.

[horsa]

Shot attached is a soldier with Number 4 Commando armed with a Model 1928 Thompson as he and his unit were moving inland from Sword Beach on their way to Ranville on June 6, 1944. Their unit also carried Sten guns at this time. Some Commandos also still had Thompsons at the time of the Rhine Crossing in March 1945.