Let's compare: The SAR and the Polish 10th MRR

[Crewman]

Hi guys,

If you like compare the regiments of two Allies that fought almost together or at least in the same regions. Both of them were armoured reconnaissance units. One of them is famous Canadian SAR, next one is the Polish 10th Mounted Rifles Regiment, well-known pre-WWII elite cavalry regiment, later on absorbed by the 1st Armoured Division as an armoured recce unit.

There is significant difference between the Polish armoured reconnaissance regiment and the Canadian armoured reconnaissance regiment. The SAR seems to be much more combat unit than its Polish counterpart. The number of 17-pounders in the Polish regiment is 0, whereas the SAR has up to 12. The Poles would be unable to fight against the German Tigers, but the SAR would be ready to do it. The SAR seems to be better prepared and equipped for various tasks, not only classic recce. Also the number of the Half Tracks in the SAR is an interesting factor - what for? For motorized infantry?

Was the SAR the only one such a powerful recce regiment in WWII Canadian Armed Forces or is it normal TOE for the Canadian armoured recce regiments of that period?


Canada -- South Alberta Regiment*
▪ Sherman Mk. IC or Mk. VC Firefly -- 12
▪ Sherman Mk. V -- 43
▪ Crusader III AA Mk. II -- 7
▪ Stuart Mk. VI -- 11
▪ M14 Half Track -- 9
▪ Sherman Mk. V ARV -- 3
▪ Humber Scout Car -- 8


Poland -- 10th Mounted Rifles Regiment**
▪ Cromwell Mk. IV -- 55
▪ M16 Half Track AA -- 6
▪ Stuart Mk. VI -- 11
▪ Cromwell ARV -- 3
▪ Humber Scout Car -- 8


Best regards

C.



Footnotes:

*Donald E. Graves
South Albertas. A Canadian Regiment at War.
Robin Brass Studio, Toronto 2004
ISBN 1-896941-39-7

**Jacek Solarz
1. Dywizja Pancerna 1944-1947 Vol. II (1st Armoured Division 1944-1947, Vol. II)
Wydawnictwo Militaria, Warsaw 2004
ISBN 83-7219-213-8

[Tony Smith]

...had:
Sherman VC: 12
Sherman III: 40
Sherman IB 105mm:4
Stuart V: 3
Stuart Recce: 8
Humber AC: 5
Lynx AC: 5
Source: Jeff Plowman and malcolm Thomas, 4th NZ armoured Brigade in Italy

Reading the reference though, it becomes apparent that this level of equipment didn't remain constant throughout the Italian campaign, as new tanks (or recce vehicles and AC's) became available they were augmented or upgraded as numbers permitted.
Source

[Crewman]

Tony,

Thank you very much for your reply. I never gave it a thought if the Polish 10th MRR was the only one Allied armoured recce regiment without 17-pounders but on the other hand the regiment had to realize such tasks that it ought to have the tanks with these better guns. The Poles indeed liked much more the Cromwells than Shermans none the less lack of the Firefly tanks seems to be serious weak point of this regiment.

Best regards

C.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
Also the number of the Half Tracks in the SAR is an interesting factor - what for? For motorized infantry?

Gregory;

Lets deal with the half tracks on the SAR chart first:

Regimental Headquarters (RHQ):

1x M14 Half Track Armoured Command - Commanding Officer's Tactical headquarters vehicle

Headquarters Squadron (HQ Sqn):

2x M14 Half Track - one for the Medical Officer (MO) and the other for the Signals Officer (Sigs O)

"A", "B" and "C" Squadrons:

Headquarters Troop of each Squadron contained 2x M14 Half Track each - one for the squadron's 'Fitters' (tank mechanics) and the other was for the evacuation of wounded/injured crewmen

Originally posted by Crewman
Was the SAR the only one such a powerful recce regiment in WWII Canadian Armed Forces or is it normal TOE for the Canadian armoured recce regiments of that period?

By this period (Normandy 1944) the TOE for Canadian Armoured and Armoured Reconnaissance Regiments were the same

Originally posted by Crewman
number of the Half Tracks in the SAR is an interesting factor - what for? For motorized infantry?

4th Cdn Armd Div (the parent formation of the SAR) had their own motorized infantry battalion, in the form of the Lake Superior Regiment (Motor), who were part of the 4th Cdn Armd Bde.

Hope this answers your questions regarding these points.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
The number of 17-pounders in the Polish regiment is 0, whereas the SAR has up to 12. The Poles would be unable to fight against the German Tigers, but the SAR would be ready to do it.

Gregory;

Regarding the lack of 17pdr equipped tanks in 10th Mounted Rifles Regiment. There was something about the fact that since Royal Armoured Corps, Armoured Recce Regiments, within the armoured divisions at that time were equipped with the Cromwell (loosely, the 10th Mounted Rifles' 'WE' was based on the British one for an armd recce regt), the Sherman 17pdr 'Firefly' was issued to Sherman equipped Armd Regts (for ease of maintenance), with the Cromwell equipped Armd Recce Regts receiving the 17pdr Challenger (which mechanically was almost identical to the Cromwell, again ease of maintenance), but there was production problems with the Challenger, which delayed it's issue to units, with the 17pdr 'Firefly' being issued in lieu of until the Challenger was ready for issue.

In the case of 10th Mounted Rifles Regiment, I seem to remember something about them not wanting the 'Firefly', deciding instead to await the delivery of the Challenger, which with the regiment being Cromwell equipped, made maintenance easier. I'll see if I can find the exact reference to this.

Also, when the Sherman 17pdr 'Firefly' first came on line, the priority of issue was to Armoured Regiments first (Sherman gun tank equipped), not Armoured Reconnaissance Regiments, which in the case of British units within 21st Army Group, were Cromwell equipped.

Cheers

[Witek Cis³ak]

Crewman, one correction.
10th Mounted Rifles Regiment used Crusader III AA Mk II ( 6 pcs.) in anti aircraft platoon, not M16 Half Track.
Best Regards
Witek Cis³ak

[John McGillivray]

If I remember correctly, the SAR did not have Fireflies in Normandy. They only received their first Fireflies in Sept. 1944.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
If I remember correctly, the SAR did not have Fireflies in Normandy. They only received their first Fireflies in Sept. 1944.

Hi John;

Your right, SAR did not receive their first 17pdr 'Firefly' until September 1944. I forgot to mention to Gregory, that the TOE of the South Alberta Regiment he was using to compare to that of the 10th Mounted Rifles, is dated 'November 1944'.

Cheers

[Crewman]

Hello All,

Originally posted by Witek Cis³ak
Crewman, one correction.
10th Mounted Rifles Regiment used Crusader III AA Mk II ( 6 pcs.) in anti aircraft platoon, not M16 Half Track.
Best Regards
Witek Cis³ak

Yes, you are right. Writing his book Mr. Solarz did not read Mr. Magnuski's book. Ehhhh, those Polish authors, you know Witek what I mean…

Normandy period TOEs for both regiments ought to be:

South Alberta Regiment
▪ Sherman Mk. V -- 55
▪ Crusader III AA Mk. II -- 7
▪ Stuart Mk. VI -- 11
▪ M14 Half Track -- 9
▪ Sherman Mk. V ARV -- 3
▪ Humber Scout Car Mk. I -- 8

10th Mounted Rifles Regiment
▪ Cromwell Mk. IV -- 55
▪ Crusader III AA Mk. III -- 6
▪ Stuart Mk. VI -- 11
▪ M9A1 Half Track -- 7
▪ Cromwell ARV -- 3
▪ Humber Scout Car Mk. I -- 8

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
In the case of 10th Mounted Rifles Regiment, I seem to remember something about them not wanting the 'Firefly', deciding instead to await the delivery of the Challenger, which with the regiment being Cromwell equipped, made maintenance easier. I'll see if I can find the exact reference to this.

Mark, this is interesting information and unknown in Poland. I would say that The History knows much better what we need and when. In the 10th Regt. history it would be hard to find more desirable period for 17-pound guns than closing the Falaise Gap between August 19th and 21st near Chambois. By the way, the same goes for the SAR that fought a mile or two away. I would be very thankful for the reference to this info about the 10th regiment that they did not want the Fireflies.

Originally posted by John McGillivray
If I remember correctly, the SAR did not have Fireflies in Normandy. They only received their first Fireflies in Sept. 1944.

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Hi John;

Your right, SAR did not receive their first 17pdr 'Firefly' until September 1944. I forgot to mention to Gregory, that the TOE of the South Alberta Regiment he was using to compare to that of the 10th Mounted Rifles, is dated 'November 1944'.

Cheers

Yes, the first SAR's Fireflies can be seen at Bergen on September 28th.

September 1944 TOEs for both regiments:

South Alberta Regiment
▪ Sherman Mk. V -- 43
▪ Sherman Mk. IC and/or Mk. VC Firefly -- 12
▪ Crusader III AA Mk. II -- 7
▪ Stuart Mk. VI -- 11
▪ M14 Half Track -- 9
▪ Sherman Mk. V ARV -- 3
▪ Humber Scout Car Mk. I -- 8

10th Mounted Rifles Regiment
▪ Cromwell Mk. IV – approx. 50
▪ A30 Challenger Mk. I – approx. 4
▪ Crusader III AA Mk. III -- 6
▪ Stuart Mk. VI -- 11
▪ M9A1 Half Track -- 7
▪ Cromwell ARV -- 3
▪ Humber Scout Car Mk. I -- 8

To sum up the SAR's advantage over 10th MRR begins since September 1944 because:
▪ the first two Challengers 10th Regt. received on August 26th but they had top secret status and were not operational, for training only;
▪ between September 21st and November 10th the regiment received nine A30 Challenger Mk. Is but on November 4th two of them were destroyed near Den Hout.
▪ full number of 12 Challengers the regiment had late February or early March 1945;
▪ and one more very important factor -- it is not a secret that the Polish 1st Armoured Division was not Generals Montgomery, Crerar and Simonds' "dream team". September 1944 TOE for 10th MRR is pure theory. Indeed long months the regiment did not receive then neither spare parts nor new AFVs. That is why it was necessary then to convert heavily damaged Stuarts into turretless variant. The regiment was also forced to reorganize itself for much smaller number of the tanks and other vehicles.


Thanks for your participation!

C.

[John McGillivray]

One other thing, the Recce Troop of SAR was equipped with Stuart V’s (M3A3), when they landed in Normandy in late July, 1944. It was only in Mid October that the Stuart V’s were replaced by Stuart VI’s (M5).

[Crewman]

Well, to sum up it is time for battle statistics of both regiments.


Casualty figures

SAR, August 1st, 1944 to May 4th, 1945
82 men killed, 339 wounded, 15 taken prisoner.

10th MRR, August 8th, 1944 to May 4th, 1945
90 men killed, 233 wounded.


The figures for tank losses

SAR, August 1st, 1944 to May 4th, 1945
204 tanks and vehicles of all types

10th MRR, August 8th, 1944 to May 4th, 1945
Destroyed – 51 Cromwells and Challengers, 8 Stuarts, 1 Scout Car, 16 other cars
Damaged – 51 Cromwells and Challengers, 5 Scout Cars
Written-off by usual wear and tear – 23 Cromwells and Challengers, 4 Stuarts, 6 Scout Cars, 5 other cars


The figures for combat successes

SAR, August 1st, 1944 to May 4th, 1945
?................................................. ..?

10th MRR, August 8th, 1944 to May 4th, 1945
German tanks destroyed and/or captured -- 19
German SP guns destroyed and/or captured -- 21
Taken prisoner -- 3328 men


What is phenomenon for me is Canadian aversion to estimate combat effectiveness and to try to count own successes measured by destroyed enemy equipment or the POWs taken. For example both American and Polish units that fought in the Falaise Gap counted their German POWs and German equipment destroyed, but it is impossible to find the same data for the Canadian units. Could anyone explain it?


Best regards

C.

[John McGillivray]

There are some stats given in Terry Copp’s book “Field of Fire’ in Appendix D. Between the period 18 July to 8 August, 1944 the 2nd Canadian Corps handled a total of 1,114 prisoners of war. Below is shown a break down of PW’s taken by 2nd Canadian Corps from 8 August to 23 August. So this gives a total of 18,312 PW's for the period of 18 July to 23 August.

1 SS Panzer Division------------------------- 169
2 SS Panzer Division--------------------------- 21
2 Panzer Division----------------------------- 765
9 SS Panzer Division-------------------------- 92
9 Panzer Division -----------------------------140
10 SS Panzer Division ------------------------196
12 SS Panzer Division ------------------------206
17 SS Panzer Grenadiers Division -----------21
21 Panzer Division---------------------------- 579
116 Panzer Division ---------------------------86
Panzer Lehr -------------------------------------27
48 Infantry Division ----------------------------1
84 Infantry Division --------------------------581
85 Infantry Division ------------------------1,527
89 Infantry Division ------------------------1,566
243 Infantry Division ---------------------------7
245 Infantry Division ---------------------------1
266 Infantry Division--------------------------- 3
271 Infantry Division------------------------ 499
272 Infantry Division-------------------------282
275 Infantry Division ------------------------165
276 Infantry Division------------------------ 793
277 Infantry Division---------------------- 1,616
326 Infantry Division ------------------------670
331 Infantry Division ------------------------106
352 Infantry Division ------------------------131
353 Infantry Division------------------------ 418
363 Infantry Division------------------------ 879
708 Infantry Division-------------------------- 32
2 Parachute Division---------------------------- 9
3 Parachute Division -------------------------994
Army, Corps, GHQ Troops -----------------815
Artillery Units ---------------------------------322
Flak Units --------------------------------------843
Werfer Units -----------------------------------234
Russians, Poles, etc. ------------------------1,111
Miscellaneous------------------------------- 1,291
_____________________________________
Total prisoners--------------------------- 17,198

[Crewman]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
There are some stats given in Terry Copp’s book “Field of Fire’ in Appendix D. Between the period 18 July to 8 August, 1944 the 2nd Canadian Corps handled a total of 1,114 prisoners of war. Below is shown a break down of PW’s taken by 2nd Canadian Corps from 8 August to 23 August. So this gives a total of 18,312 PW's for the period of 18 July to 23 August.

John,

Thank you very much for these data. They are very useful and informative. Up to this time I thought that there is a kind of mental barrier in the midst of the Canadian researchers and historians to publish detailed lists of the Canadian combat successes measured by the POWs taken for instance, not to mention destroyed enemy tanks, vehicles and others. I thought that maybe there is an opinion in Canada that such an estimation is impossible in very detailed form therefore it would be better to avoid such estimation.

But,… if we are at the details… As I wrote somewhere in the other post of this forum Professor Terry Copp is my favourite WWII historian. I admire both his work and his publicistic culture as well as the fact that he is personally involved in building new monuments at the Normandy battle fields, despite the fact that he is retired and he is not forced to such an activity. I think he must love this part of history, and I love the people who love their job. But,… what is surprising for me at this POW list is its accuracy. Literally to a man. I do not know if the Canadians counted at this list also Chambois and its region but they ought to do it because North half of the town was held by the Canadian 1st Army in the form of Polish 1st Armoured Division. At Chambois there is big problem when it comes to the POWs though frankly speaking I do not think that it is only Chambois-related case and problem. Up to this day there is fierce conflict between US and Polish troops for the German POWs at Chambois. There is lack of approx. 800-1200 POWs in the mutual American-Polish "reckonings". The POWs were handed over then from the Poles to the Americans but not all of them found safe place at the provisional cages. There are various Canadian, American and Polish memoirs on the subject of what happened with those POWs. No doubt it is sad and hard moment of the US-Polish relations from the Falaise Gap. I wanted to tell only one thing -- I am afraid that at the POWs list from the Falaise Gap the level of accuracy to a man is pure theory if only two Allied divisions are unable to agree between them (officially) how it is possible that 1,000 POWs "disappeared" them during march from Polish lines to the American lines.

One more time thank you very much for the list

Best regards

C.


PS. Is there any list of the German tanks and other vehicles destroyed/captured by the SAR?

[John McGillivray]

There is a rough count of AFV’s destroyed in and around St-Lambert, contained in the unit history of the SAR by Donald Graves (p.173)

“One Panther tank was still on the Dives Bridge where it had been hit, while another had been pushed off the bridge into the ditch. There were two knocked-out Panthers near the Mairie and a Tiger with its turret blown off on the main street and another at the southern crossroads hit by the 103rd Battery gunners. Across the river in the orchards and farm fields there were more than a dozen knocked-out German tanks or SPGs and three more were found in the north end of the village. Burned out trucks, halftracks and armoured cars littered the streets and lanes of St. Lambert and the area around it.”

[chris vickery]

Hi Guys
Didn't know if you'd noticed my new toy posted on another thread, but here is a picture anyhow.
My intentions are to repaint and restore as a halftrack of the SAR in honour of Maj. Currie VC

[Crewman]

Hello

Originally posted by chris vickery
Hi Guys
Didn't know if you'd noticed my new toy posted on another thread,...

I noticed and admired your new heavy toy many hours. Congratulations, extremely good job. Imagine that in Poland there is only one Halftrack serviceable in one of the Living History Associations.

Originally posted by chris vickery
My intentions are to repaint and restore as a halftrack of the SAR in honour of Maj. Currie VC

Very good idea, never too much efforts to honour famous regiments.

Best regards

C.


PS. Your Halftrack is "Gertie", we do have in Poland her sister going by the name "Rosie" -- fully serviceable "German Halftrack" SdKfz 251 restored in its original camouflage scheme with "Rosie" name on a side armour.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Crewman
10th Mounted Rifles Regiment
▪ Cromwell Mk. IV – approx. 50
▪ A30 Challenger Mk. I – approx. 4
▪ Crusader III AA Mk. III -- 6
▪ Stuart Mk. VI -- 11
▪ M9A1 Half Track -- 7
▪ Cromwell ARV -- 3
▪ Humber Scout Car Mk. I -- 8

Crewman, somehow I recall that the Stuart VI's used by the Polish 10th Mounted Rifles Regiment were turretless Recce tanks. Can you confirm this, please?

Thanks,
Hanno

[m kenny]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
and a Tiger with its turret blown off on the main street

John for a while I also believed it was a Tiger wrecked in the St Lambert photo but when I got a large copy of the pic it is obvious that it is a PzIV wreck. The muzzle brake looks more like the 75mm model than an 88 mm.
If you have Schneider's TIC II note that he has this 'Tiger' wreck as a loss for both sSS PzAbt. 101(page 260) and sSS PzAbt. 102 (page 332)!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Crewman, somehow I recall that the Stuart VI's used by the Polish 10th Mounted Rifles Regiment were turretless Recce tanks.

I knew I had seen a pic somewhere! It is featured in Polish Armoured Forces 1939-1945 by Zbigniew Lalak.

Who knows where the Polish 10th Mounted Rifles Regiment were in combat?

Thanks,
Hanno