ontario mounting rules

[machelko]

Does anyone know the official rules and regulations for mounting and displaying deactivated firearms on historical military vehicles in Ontario. My understanding is that once a gun has been deactivated it is no longer considered a firearm and basically just a piece of metal and wood. I also thought that because they have been deactivated properly, they aren't considered replicas or movie props. Any insight would be great for us that want to mount such items on parade vehicles.

[rob love]

Once deactivated, they are no longer subject to the safe storage, transportation or display regulations.

However, just like a bar of soap carved into the shape of a firearm, or a finger pointed inside a jacket, they will still be considered a firearm if used in a threatening way, so don't let the kids track people walking with the 50 cal. Safe firearms handling (no pointing at people, finger off the trigger etc) Should still be instilled into people wanting to handle the dewats.

Another point is that in this day of socially programmed "bad scary guns" hysteria, there are those who will report their observation of "machine guns" while you are loading them onto your jeep on your driveway. Most police policies are to seize all the firearms (real or not) and let the crown attorney sort it out. Reasonable discretion should apply.

[Seatyger]

Considering where your located I would heed the advise provided by Rob. During an appropriate Function, ceremony or parade etc., or even a Car Show as a static display you would be hard pressed to arouse any kind of 'Interest' of an official nature.

There are however numerous locals pushing the envelope with respect to what is and what isnt a legal obligation/responsibility. Be it Free Men of the Land who dont believe in Drivers Licences, Vehicle plates Blah blah blah who incidently are quite active in SW Ontario.

Perception is everything, and there are enough fruitcakes who would be more than happy to describe to an officer how the 'Army type vehicle with the machinegun {INSERT REASON} cut me off, was driving in a threatening and aggressive manner towards me, was..... laughing and drinking coffee while making eye contact etc.

Basically that is enough to become an item of interest and begin the BS process of having to explain yourself and what your all about. If your articulate enough in your explanation you'll likely be fine.

However, if your not an accomplished and confident speaker you run the risk of having the non-gun seized in the interest of 'Public Safety' and having to explain why you felt the need to attend the Sobey's parking lot with a life like machinegun mounted and in full view to the shoppers present. (Example mine)

After a couple hours in Court and around 5,000. in legal fees you may get the item back but you would certainly be criticized for poor judgement by the 'System' and probably Bad Taste by your peers.

Having said that; Are the gun laws and current firearms regulations ineffective, intrusive and basically stupid? Absolutely. But bringing that kind of attention to yourself as an individual could be a disasterous experience.

If you were to 'Convoy' up for a road trip with a couple to half dozen or more vehicles and enthusiasts and stay to more rural areas I would think you would be fine. If you were stopped it would likely be by someone like myself who is genuinely curious and interested in your equipment and its history.

Sorry for the long winded response, but I have dealt with many people who have acted without thinking it through so to speak. No malicious intent, nor devious behaviour they simply never anticipated the reactions of others.

You will likely get a few who will tell you 'Screw them, they can't do that because........' and in the end, after a couple of expensive years it may very well be. But you are the one who will have to endure the stress and financial hardship to prove 'Them' right.

Oh and PS: Just because it may no longer be technically considered a Firearm does not mean that it cannot be preceived as a Weapon. Something else to keep in the back of your mind. (Its like falling into a legal Black Hole) If your going to drive through the City I would suggest-

Stay away from, Military Bases, facilities, and Property, all Federal and Provincial Government facilities, School and Educational buildings of all types and/or configurations, Hospitals, City Hall, Police Buildings, Tim Hortons Drive Thru Lanes, Power Generating facilities.................... Now I'm just being a smart a$$ but you get the picture

[Hans Mulder]

As previously mentioned, once deactivated, not a firearms. Display all you like...in my experience, you are more likely to be pulled over because the officer wants to know what exactly the green thing is that you are driving, than because they have any concerns. I wouldn't worry in the least.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hans Mulder

As previously mentioned, once deactivated, not a firearms. Display all you like...in my experience, you are more likely to be pulled over because the officer wants to know what exactly the green thing is that you are driving, than because they have any concerns. I wouldn't worry in the least.

Wrong answer. Advice provided earlier is the best course. You may be right, you may be within the law, it may even be a 'no brainer' to you because you know the intricacies of the law, but to the avergae bystander it is a 'machine gun' and you aren't allowed to own it.
Most police officers don't know the detail of the gun laws and will seize it first and find out later -and their bosses will support the decision as will the Crown prosecutor and the judge (as he grudgingly agrees that you can have the dewat back). Meanwhile, it costs you time and money because you wanted to show everyone that you were 'right'.
If you can, transport the 'toys' as cargo and install once you are in place.
Oh, and to add to Seatyger's list of destinations NOT to go to with your MG openly displayed is Parliament Hill - 'nuff said.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by servicepub

Wrong answer. Advice provided earlier is the best course. You may be right, you may be within the law, it may even be a 'no brainer' to you because you know the intricacies of the law, but to the avergae bystander it is a 'machine gun' and you aren't allowed to own it.
Most police officers don't know the detail of the gun laws and will seize it first and find out later -and their bosses will support the decision as will the Crown prosecutor and the judge (as he grudgingly agrees that you can have the dewat back). Meanwhile, it costs you time and money because you wanted to show everyone that you were 'right'.
If you can, transport the 'toys' as cargo and install once you are in place.
Oh, and to add to Seatyger's list of destinations NOT to go to with your MG openly displayed is Parliament Hill - 'nuff said.

I agree 100%. What your 'rights' are and what you should do to avoid a whack of trouble for yourself, the rest of us and the hobby in general are two different things. The best policy is to keep the dewats under cover unless it's a sanctioned event. A silly incident brandishing a 'machine gun' on a jeep going to the shopping plaza could create such a fuss that it would impact us all in a very bad way. Hell, a camera tripod coming out of a car trunk recently closed down York University.

Dewats, in my opinion, are a privilege we should not abuse. Replicas are illegal in Canada and it wouldn't take much to get deactivated firearms banned as well if something silly happened.

[Hans Mulder]

I think the likelihood of something "silly" happening is pretty slim in the MV community. Further, the OP is referring specifically to "parade vehicles", not tooling down to the 7-11 for a slurpee. Also, tripods, the anti-theft club, etc have inspired the paranoid "sheeple" across the country to call the police and scream "gun"...remind you of anything...maybe of a boy calling "wolf"? Police need to start screening these "gun" calls better, as guns are here to stay.

[rob love]

There is a difference between the rural west, the urban west, and then Southern Ontario. Whereas I can carry my unrestricted guns to and from the house to the shop, or into my vehicles, or transport them visible to the range, I know guys in Southern Ontario who have to almost sneak their firearms into their vehicles as if it were something as untoward as child porn. Vancouver is becoming almost as bad.....I think it was a year or so ago that the police there did a high risk take down of some guys heading to the range because a neighbor saw them loading their guns into the jeep.

The guy putting his club on his vehicle in Winnipeg, then having the swat team at his door arresting everyone a couple days ago show just how far this hysteria has gone. This was not in the crime infested part of Winnipeg either, but in a nice middle class neighborhood.

Even if you are right, you will lose something to prove it, be it your time, your reputation, or your toys. The newspapers will plaster your name and address, along with what you are presumed to be charged with on the front page of the paper, while the NWEST will lie through their teeth at the press information session. Your welded dewats will be described as appearing functional, and your obviously hollow inert ordnance will blow up when combined with some C4 at the ordnance dump. Your lawyer will warn you not to talk to the press. A year later when you are exonerated, the press will not say a word about it as they will deem that not newsworthy.

Anyone here know how those guys fared in the end when they drove the ferret with the dewat GPMG mounted on top up the driveway to parliament hill?

[Seatyger]

Hey Guys- I can understand the resentment and anger this subject brings up. I too feel that way and I am a police officer. I certainly won't apologise for what I do for a living. I own more than 'many' firearms. I have also sold off my C1A1, MP5 amongst others back in the day because I absolutely refuse to pin magazines on a functioning firearm.

So, do I protest and keep them regardless? Sadly no. Being active in the shooting and outdoors community, word eventually gets around as to what you have etc. And frankly I would have more to risk from some 'comrades in arms' who have not grown up with firearms, have never served with our armed forces and who can barely tell what end the bullet comes out.

So using myself as an example, can I articulate myself in Court as to what I have and Why? Very much so. But even if I survived the overzealous, uninformed Prosecutor etc., I would then have to navigate the parallel Police Act investigation which I would not win. Not in this climate of Liberally indoctrinated Senior Management. So a very beautiful, very accurate (as Battle Rifles go) 8L Series FN C1A1 with many C1 & C2 magazines serves on active duty with a Sheriffs Department in the State of Georgia, along with the H&K.

With respect to the MV Circle etc., dont fool yourself. A gentleman is still waiting to receive back his Bren, No.4 MkI and related from Ottawa, because the Provincial Weapons Unit wanted to be convinced that the firearms in question were in fact 'Deactivated'

They dont, nor does the Courts in this area really care about what an approved Gunsmith had to say, even when they did the work! I have every confidence that he will get them back. But they've been gone for 18 months already.

What brought attention to himself? He ordered a mail order replacement barrel from the U.S.

The sad fact of life in Canada is that the Collecting and Sporting communities are far too dysfunctional to rally a truely effective counter attack on the Anti's.

We could argue and yell on this forever. I just want everyone to use common sense and frankly not be stupid when 'flying their colours' so to speak. This Community is awesome in that regard, mostly I think because they have a committed passion for what they are doing.

I find its the younger, XBOX syndrome just an bought an AK Copy airsoft gun who cause 98 percent of the grief.

I have to stop because I will keep typing all night. I am not being an alarmist, I don't want anyone to have to suffer a similar nightmare.

If anyone has any direct questions on any topic relating to this subject PM me. I can only deal with the CFO here in Ontario but I will do my best to get a direct answer for you.

Just dont shoot the messenger if your not satisfied with the answer!

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by rob love

Anyone here know how those guys fared in the end when they drove the ferret with the dewat GPMG mounted on top up the driveway to parliament hill?

I don't know, but after the event quite a few of us with armour were just waiting for some politician to go on a crusade demanding private ownership of 'tanks' be banned.

[rob love]

They nearly inadvertently banned them here in Manitoba.

In their attempt to make it look like they are doing something against the criminal element, the province enacted a bill to ban body armour and armoured vehicles. Gordon F, a member on this site, wrote his MLA, and a government rep came to his house to view his collection. Fortunately the rep liked what he saw, and admitted they had not considered the collectors aspect. As a result, the law (which goes into effect Jan 1) will exclude historic military vehicles.

Due to the forthcoming law I had to give away a great level 2 vest when I left Afghanistan. I am sure the IP (Indian Posse) of North Winnipeg are scrambling to get rid of all theirs too, and will hopefully find the time to pin all those imported magazines as well.

Just so Seatygear doesn't think I am directing any anger his way, I certainly am not. But a certain political party will feel my disdain forever (that is if they even survive the next election....they have been on a downhill slide to oblivion for the last decade.)

[Seatyger]

Rob, I have pretty thick skin LOL! As President of my Police Association I was quoted in Parliament by our MP concerning our distrust and disgust of the Long Gun Registry amongst other things.

We withdrew from the Canadian Police Association over the political Whoremanship displayed when they 180'd on it and chose to support its survival.

Not everyone in an official capacity supports any of this crap. It makes me want to vomit when I see them destroy items of interest to Canadian citizens. Be it Lynx APC's, MLVW's, Browning HiPowers to Naval training vessels. So its is an educational process from within as well. We are getting there, at least in my area. I know of others trying to do the same.

As far as I am concerned Screw the Criminal element and the parasites that feed off them......but that takes work and diligence.

Its far easier to grab something off an established collector.
Someone who likely won't fight back. Or have limited means to do so.

It will take a strong collective effort to make them back off. And they do eventually. Another Cause will be developed for them to Champion.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

I've been reading this thread with interest, and though question and the response was more particular to Canada, the thoughts about staying out of problems are pretty universal.

Years ago we had a very active and large regional MV Club in New England in fact had one of the largest conventions. That club for all intensive purposes died over an incident at a club rally when a bunch of drunken yahoos decided it would be fun to go off in the middle of the night for a blackout trail ride. Including an armored scout car with 50cal machine gun simulator. You guess the next event, gee lets fire the simulator while driving around on country roads. Well these guys arrived back at the camp site followed shortly by a very large contingent of State Police. Because these guys had succeeded in blending into the rest of the group, no body got arrested, the "Machine Gun" did get confiscated. The Police did take down the licenses plate number of every military vehicle there. One of the reasons that nobody got arrested and everything got calm down quickly was that some of the people who got woken up at the camp site when all the blue lights arrived were several police officers who were members of the club, they were not amused to hear about the activities.

Result was that the next morning a good sized group decided it was time for a new club that was more oriented on the military vehicles, family camping and having fun driving our MVs in the woods. That splinter group club has been around for 25 years now. The old group is long gone.

So the advice of don't ask for trouble is pretty universal.

Cheers Phil

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by machelko

Does anyone know the official rules and regulations for mounting and displaying deactivated firearms on historical military vehicles in Ontario. My understanding is that once a gun has been deactivated it is no longer considered a firearm and basically just a piece of metal and wood. I also thought that because they have been deactivated properly, they aren't considered replicas or movie props. Any insight would be great for us that want to mount such items on parade vehicles.

Interesting how the thread diverged from a question to a vehement agreement between likeminded fellows.

I was advised by the local OMVA leader that any deactivated firearms have to be treated like live firearms in public. That is to say, nothing left unattended or unlocked. That prevents simple theft. When the owner has to lug a rifle or smg or lmg on the shoulder all day long, the thrill of ownership loses some of its lustre.

My M38A1 has the GPMG base and mount, and I want a display visual imitation for rebuild accuracy. There is no way I can justify (pfft!) a dewat M1919. Perversely the laws about "replica" firearms complicate the effort. Something black and heavy with a hand-shaped on the back end, a rectangular rear block and a holed tube front end, might be all I can get away with.

FWIW, in the late '70s and early '80s we had zippered canvas covers for our GPMGs. There is legal jurisprudance that a rifle in a rifle case can't be considered a concealed firearm. So there is a hide in plain sight might be a legally defensible option for displaying dewat firearms.

[Harry Moon]

I agree that when and where is very important. I've done a lot of displays at a lot of different venues both with and for either our Arms collectors Society or our MV club. Whenever firearms be they Live, dewat or replica I recomend dropping a line to the local constabulary via public events liason, a heads up courtesy call, and depending on the curcumctances nieghbors and local bussiness prevents as well, this helps prevent trouble. We have the right to do things but quite frankley In most cases we are middle class white guys who would have to pay for our own lawyers up against some lieberal who is working on our unlimited tax dollars.
Now I know the discussion has been about Dewats on Mv's but I have also been involved in demo's with blanks and events at ranges and despite a lot of planning and preperation things can still go wrong and generate adverse reactions. Something about putting the Pacific fleet and a number of Japanese Warships on alert should be considered an adverse reaction to be avoided

[Seatyger]

Machelko- Please don't misinterpret anything I have posted as a poke at you. You have actually raised a very legitimate question. I believe it is important that the Whole of the MV Community becomes educated and aware.

The collective knowledge of the Members of this Forum is staggering. However, like many things, before you get an answer; the question has to be asked.

The responses so far have been interesting to say the least.

[machelko]

I appreciate all of the input and info. Being somewhat new to the MVP, it is always good to hear many different types of feedbacks from personal experiences.
As I had pretty much decided before I started this thread, it is best to play it smart with whatever you do regarding MV and dewats. As I had mentioned in the beginning, we are talking about parades and shows, not shopping at the supermall, or cruising the strip for chicks.
My understanding with most historical firearms, they had the options of hard cases and boxes, or canvas covers. To me, that seems like an easy fix. Out of sight, out of mind. Perhaps if its mounted ontop of a jeep, but with the matching canvas cover, might be OK when driving to destination. Also, getting to know your local authorities is a good thing. When they understand what you have, and have seen it, sometimes they don't mind you dropping their name if you get in a bind elsewhere. Providing your not breaking rules.
In the end, we are trying to preserve the history, not have it confiscated and melted to make cheap wrenches.

[machelko]

Hello gentlemen

Recieved this info direct from RCMP, may help a bit.
Dan

** High Priority **
Thank you for your correspondence.

Firearms are exempt from the requirements of the Firearms Act if theRegistrar of Firearms is satisfied that the firearms have been madeincapable of discharging projectiles that can cause serious injury ordeath and therefore, no longer meet the definition of a firearm.

The Registrar has developed new guidelines to ensure that firearms aresufficiently modified to be exempt from the definition of a firearm.Businesses and individuals whose firearms have been deactivatedaccording to the guidelines are protected from criminal liability forpossessing those firearms without a valid licence or registrationcertificate.

The regulations pertaining to the safe storage and transportation offirearms do not apply to firearms that have been deregistered due todeactivation. It remains important, however, to store and transport themsafely to deter loss or theft.

If we can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact us bye-mail or call our office at 1-800-731-4000.

Thank you.
Richard, FSD Communications
RCMP Canadian Firearms Program
1-800-731-4000www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp

[Hans Mulder]

Essentially, a dewat is no longer classified or treated as a firearm, unless you do something stupid with it...like point it at someone, hold up your local 7-11, etc

IE: it is not ILLEGAL to mount a dewat of any sort on an MV and go for a drive. However, I will agree, it may not always be prudent to do so...

[Jordan Baker]

Did you ask him if the deactivated firearms are still considered as "non guns" ? Thats the important part for your own safety.