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  #1  
Old 18-11-20, 15:38
Peter Phillips Peter Phillips is offline
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Default M38Cdn Refurbishment

Well the old Jeep developed a noise in the motor at 32K miles which I wanted to tackle before it threw a rod or destroyed something major. So as most things go, if you start on a project they tend to snowball which this will be on an epic scale. Being 68 years old, the old girl was in need of a thorough going over so I decided I'll do a frame up refurbishment to make it safe, dependable and corrosion free. The good news is that everything worked well up to this point on it and shouldn't need a lot of repairs except for a motor overhaul. Hopefully by end of day today I'll have the tub off and can start on the undercarriage.

Plans right now are to:
-replace all seals and gaskets on the transmission, t-case and front and rear differentials
-have a rad shop go over the radiator
-re-arch the springs and install new shocks and shackles
-replace all the brake flex hoses and brake lines
-replace the wiring harness with a reproduction one
-replace the windshield and sealing rubber
-replace body mount rubber and anti-squeak strips
-replace the master cylinder and go over all brakes
-fresh paint - Here's where it gets interesting. The CF trialed a 3 color camouflage in the late 60's on the M38Cdn. I may replicate that or stick with the regular OD (Ref Ed Storey's article in the last "History in Motion" magazine), still toying with that one?

There's a few drill holes to weld up in the tub but no rust to speak of which is good as I hate bodywork :-(
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jeep 1.1.jpg   jeep 2.2.jpg   jeep 3.1.jpg   Jeep 4.1.jpg   jeep 5.1.jpg  

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Last edited by Peter Phillips; 18-11-20 at 15:51.
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Old 18-11-20, 15:41
Peter Phillips Peter Phillips is offline
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Got it down to the frame now. Surprisingly I only broke 3 bolts getting this apart, 2 small body bolts behind the rear wheels and one body bolt under the drivers floor board going into the hat channel. Everything else came apart nicely! There was one part of the frame that was pinched from a previous recovery so I borrowed a Enerpac from work and spread the C-channel apart again. None of the springs are broken so they'll go for a re-arch and new clamps and such. Instead a sand blasting the frame, I'm taking it to a shop to have it ultrasonic cleaned for a couple of hundred bucks which I think is cheaper and less invasive as blasting. They have a 12' x 5' tub that will accommodate the frame nicely. The motor will be taken down to the builder in Edmonton on the 30th as well as the springs which will go to a spring shop
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Jeep Frame 1.jpg   jeep frame 2.jpg   jeep frame 3.jpg  
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Old 18-11-20, 15:45
Peter Phillips Peter Phillips is offline
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Time for an update. The motor is at the shop for a rebuild, the frame is back from ultrasonic cleaning and the rad and springs are back from servicing. I've pretty much gathered most of what I need to start piecing the frame back together once painting is complete. Surprisingly the front pinion seal was leather and probably original. There's a picture of the frame before and after ultrasonic cleaning which I think did a pretty good job for $150.00 cash and a box of donuts :-). I'll have to do a bit of buffing on the frame before paint and a final degrease as they hit the whole frame with WD-40 after it was cleaned to stop flash rusting
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Frame Before Cleaning.jpg   Frame After Cleaning.jpg   Frame After Cleaning 1.jpg   Springs.jpg   Ultrasonic Tank.jpg  

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  #4  
Old 19-11-20, 05:43
Rob Crombie Rob Crombie is offline
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Well, you work fast!


I haven’t heard of ultrasonic cleaning an entire frame before. That really did clean up nicely, although I suppose you still have to deal with any rust. I guess if it’s a good way to clean diamond jewelry, it should be fine for a Jeep!
Is this the first time that this has been down to the frame? It looked pretty good at the beginning, so I bet it’s going to be really nice when you’re done.
Out of curiosity, do you know what the issue was with the engine?

Cheers,
Rob
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Old 19-11-20, 14:40
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Hmmm? If Doctor Evil had used one of those things on Bond instead of lasers, focused sunrays, sharks, sawmills, or other doomed-to-failure execution methods, maybe the franchise would have only been one movie long?
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  #6  
Old 19-11-20, 17:02
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What PTO is that on your transfer case? There seem to be a lot of grooves on the pulley. I have seen reference to PTO driven welders in the back of the M38s....was that the original purpose of this PTO?
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Old 19-11-20, 17:27
Peter Phillips Peter Phillips is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Crombie View Post
Well, you work fast!


I haven’t heard of ultrasonic cleaning an entire frame before. That really did clean up nicely, although I suppose you still have to deal with any rust. I guess if it’s a good way to clean diamond jewelry, it should be fine for a Jeep!
Is this the first time that this has been down to the frame? It looked pretty good at the beginning, so I bet it’s going to be really nice when you’re done.
Out of curiosity, do you know what the issue was with the engine?

Cheers,
Rob
Yes I'll have to buff the rust away in places but the ultrasonic cleaning took off all but minimal traces of paint and all oil and grease is gone even inside the boxed part of the frame. I think this is the first time the tubs been off based on the condition of the body rubbers and fasteners. Realistically, the jeep is in great condition but needed some minor work aside from the motor to make sure it's good for another 50+ years. The engine is currently with Al Rice (who does work for Reg Hodgson) out of Fort Saskatchewan waiting for tear down. I have videos of it running and it's early diagnosis is piston slap on #1 cylinder. It ran great with no smoke so hopefully it will be an easy build. If anyone wants to hear the noise, text Pete at 1-780-815-3871 and I'll share the videos.

FYI, for anyone interested in this cleaning process, our area is heavy in oil & gas with lots of shell and tube heat exchangers in use with small diameter tubes that are hard to clean, 100's of them in some cases. This is their "small" tank 12'x5' and is always hot and on standby....that's why it was so cheap. The frame was cooked for 24 hours. I think a quick search around your area will find a similar unit that may be available to use......might not be cheap though? I'm thinking of dipping my whole M-100 trailer in it too when it comes time for a refurbishment on it. And the best part it's aluminum and rubber safe.
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Last edited by Peter Phillips; 19-11-20 at 17:54.
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  #8  
Old 19-11-20, 17:29
Peter Phillips Peter Phillips is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
What PTO is that on your transfer case? There seem to be a lot of grooves on the pulley. I have seen reference to PTO driven welders in the back of the M38s....was that the original purpose of this PTO?
Hi Rob, this drives my winch and I believe it's a Ramsey unit. I can get specifics like casting numbers when I get home if needed.

Pete
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  #9  
Old 19-11-20, 18:38
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I was just curious. I believe DND had some M38s equipped with the welders. I have a proper Ramsey PTO for the military winch, and have owned several others over the years, but I have not seen that PTO before. Did it come with your Jeep? Do you have the original Ramsey 50 winch on yours?
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  #10  
Old 19-11-20, 20:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
I was just curious. I believe DND had some M38s equipped with the welders. I have a proper Ramsey PTO for the military winch, and have owned several others over the years, but I have not seen that PTO before...
Pete: what does your PTO look like from a different angle than shown above? I think this is the PTO model Rob is referencing...

Great progress Pete! Looking forward to watching your progress (after you finish with hunting season, of course...).
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  #11  
Old 19-11-20, 21:21
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Wayne: Yes, that is the normal military PTO I was talking about.
Looking at Peters photos, could it be nothing more than a different pulley on the rear of the PTO as opposed to the normal drive flange?
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Old 19-11-20, 22:54
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Looking at Peter's photo of the front left of the engine you can just see the downward extension of the PTO with the cast writing on it so I think it is the same unit.

David
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  #13  
Old 19-11-20, 23:10
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Interesting way to degrease a frame, but I think I will stick with a proper sandblasting.
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Old 19-11-20, 23:59
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One issue I could see with this type of cleaning is that the chemical gets in and cleans where it will be impossible to get paint into. Even sandblasting will often do the same. It leaves the unpainted areas subject to corrosion down the road.

Perhaps not much of a problem for us in the West, and most likely even in the East not a big issue for open top vehicles like a Jeep as it will not likely be driven on the salted roads.

I have heard of guys dragging a paint soaked sponge or rag through the box of a frame. When I replaced the frame on the wife's stingray, I did that where I could, along with shooting paint through every hole in the frame possible. Those frames were especially susceptible to rust. Some actually send their frames to get hot dipped and galvanized.
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Old 20-11-20, 12:32
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Another issue I see and have heard about from others when going with a "wet" stripping method is solution bleeding out and making it difficult to paint even more so if there is wood incorporated in the vehicle construction (like the wood in hat channels). Thanks but I am a guy who likes sandblasting and the "one and done" aspect of it and going straight to primer and paint.
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Old 20-11-20, 13:58
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Before passing judgement on ultrasonic cleaning it would be important to know if any chemicals were involved at all. Maybe just fresh water and some soap. This would make it far better than tradition “dipping” which involves caustic soda that is very difficult to neutralize in welded seams and crevasses.
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Old 30-12-20, 17:18
Peter Phillips Peter Phillips is offline
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Hard to believe another month has gone by since the last update. Laid down some primer and color on the frame, springs and miscellaneous items. Pressed in some new spring bushings too. Feels good to start bolting stuff back on for once. This was my first foray in using a paint gun and I'm happy with the results for a beginner.
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jeep1r.jpg   jeep2r.jpg   jeep3r.jpg   jeep4r.jpg   jeep5r.jpg  

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Old 30-12-20, 21:17
James P James P is offline
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^ Looks great Peter. Just a little tip if I may, do not bother shooting paint on bolt heads that are visible on the body (like on grab handles, windshield, etc) hit them with primer, bolt on, then brush on paint with a suitable fine model brush. This will save you barking paint on install then revisiting and cleaning up. Remember, there is never enough time to do things right the first time............but always time to correct things on the second go.
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Old 31-12-20, 16:50
Peter Phillips Peter Phillips is offline
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Thanks for that tip James! Never really thought about that issue until now, interesting problem

And for the record, I've since replaced the t-case rubber cushion with a repro one. The original was a real treat to get out of the metal cup.
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Old 27-01-21, 15:32
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I'm getting more comfortable with the paint gun and am mildly happy with the results........and I'm finally bolting parts back on. I've received everything I needed to re-assemble the brakes including new master cylinder, steel and flexible brake lines, wheel cylinders and re-used the brake shoes as they are good. I also installed new bearings and seals and inner stub bushings. Got some bad news on the motor from the builder though....seems the front pulley had worked itself loose at some time and destroyed the keyway and wore down the front of the crank. Someone has been into this thing as he also found knurled pistons and none of the internal fasteners seemed to be at the correct torque. I managed to find a re-conditioned crank near me ground .010 under on the mains and throws and ordered .040 over pistons, rings, all bearings, frost plugs, oil pump and complete valve train components. I have a NOS head that I'll throw on for good measure too. Hoping to have the brakes adjusted and bled and back on wheels by next Monday if everything goes as planned.
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Last edited by Peter Phillips; 27-01-21 at 15:46.
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Old 27-01-21, 17:21
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There was actually a bulletin about the loose pulley nut causing the keyway to elongate.
20 years ago I bought a reasonably new van from the BSM of the artillery battery was attached to. It had a knocking engine. I negotiated the price based on that. Went to pull the engine and yep...loose pulley. The pair of artillery guys he had do some engine work did not torque the nut. It was still early enough in the wear that I was able to cut a new keyway in the pulley and the van continued on for another decade.

Last edited by rob love; 28-01-21 at 03:35.
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Old 28-01-21, 01:00
Peter Phillips Peter Phillips is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
There was actually a bulletin about the loose pulley nut causing the keyway to elongate.
20 years ago I bought a reasonably new van form the BSM of the artillery battery was attached to. It had a knocking engine. I negotiated the price based on that. Went to pull the engine and yep...loose pulley. The pair of artillery guys he had do some engine work did not torque the nut. It was still early enough in the wear that I was able to cut a new keyway in the pulley and the van continued on for another decade.
That doesn't surprise me at what engines can handle in terms of abuse and still work. Glad that repair worked out for you I was hoping the crank can be salvaged but according to the builder it's not worth the effort so I'll concede to the expert.
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Old 13-03-21, 17:26
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Can't believe it's been so long for an update! This has definitely been a marathon thus far with a few u-turns added for good measure
The brakes went together well and I even made a custom adjustment tool to help out. I'm trying to solve some very pesky leaks at the copper crush gaskets even though it's all new components....I've ordered more parts so I'll get it eventually. Let's talk springs.....I had the springs re-arched in Edmonton and have a bit of a dilemma. You can see the device I made to pre-load the springs so I can bolt up the shocks and brake lines. Then I can slowly unload them later on by loosening the nut. I've reached out to a few brethren from here and am assured this is quite normal until the major components are installed to add weight. It's a bit unnerving is all. I'm in the process of going through the tranny and t-case for serviceability, seal them up nicely and hopefully get them painted up soon. The motor is being re-assembled so I may see it soon too!
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  #24  
Old 13-03-21, 18:55
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Peter if you still have the old copper gaskets just reuse them. When installing new brake parts we never use the new washers as there are too many leaks. The old washers seem to be leak proof.
Cheers, Barry
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Old 13-03-21, 19:57
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There does not seem to be a correct torque for the new copper washers.I have tried them from loose to almost stripping the cylinder tight.



I got so frustrated trying to use new copper washers with silicone brake fluid, that I finally smeared the thinnest/lightest coat of silicone glue on them possible. That did the trick, but is not an approved method. My thought was silicone with silicone....what could go wrong?
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Old 13-03-21, 21:08
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Barry, unfortunately I think they're gone already, dang it! Never would've guessed that would be the preferred method than using new ones, interesting

Rob funny you mention that as I've tightened these beyond what I would normally do...and I've done a lot of brake work since 1984! I went with DOT 4 for this system as it's driven in dry conditions and parked in a climate controlled shop.

There's got to be a work around for shoddy copper gaskets? I've got a leak at the front axle brass tee, and at the 2 larger ones on the master cylinder banjo bolt. The rear tee and front wheel cylinders are good, weird?
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Last edited by Peter Phillips; 13-03-21 at 21:23.
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Old 13-03-21, 21:50
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Are you talking about inverted flare fittings at the wheel cylinder and brass T connections? In that case, too tight and the flares themselves either split or over-compress and lose their ability to seal. Are you trying to use sealing rings in those connections?

I can certainly understand leakage at the master cylinder copper gaskets. But usually flare fittings are pretty good to seal.



Personally, I like DOT4, especially for larger trucks or trucks pulling a load. I remember having my brake fluid boil off when towing a heavy load in to medicine hat. I walked to a local autoparts store, bought a pint of DOT4, put that in and didn't even have to bleed the brakes. That fluid lasted for another 10 years until I got rid of that truck.
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Old 14-03-21, 09:42
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Looks great Pete. I guess with the price of copper going north of $4 USD we are seeing blends of other metals rather than pure copper washers for use in brake systems. I didn't know the new washers are junk.
I see the "supervisor's chair" in one of your photos. Its good the boss is providing over watch, so you don't get yourself in trouble.
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Old 14-03-21, 14:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Hingley View Post
I guess with the price of copper going north of $4 USD we are seeing blends of other metals rather than pure copper washers for use in brake systems. I didn't know the new washers are junk.
I don't think the issue is the price of Copper, I think it comes down to the source of the washers, where they are produced, and that is what has seen the change in the alloy used.

Some searching at swapmeets, old hardware and plumbing suppliers, and even weekend home garage sales will quite often turn up NOS/vintage packets of washers (and nuts/bolts, etc) that are of far better quality than new items from even reputable retailers.
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Old 14-03-21, 15:17
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Default Hardness of the washers

Hi Guys

First Peter excellent overhaul, restoration, or preventive maintenance program, definitely setting the Jeep up for another 50 years.

It would be interesting to check the hardness of NOS 1940s brake washers vs New 2020s washers. I suspect that the percentage of recycled copper is making the washers harder to the point where they no longer deform to seal well. At the same time has any one notice that new manufacturer brake cylinders the circular groves the washer are to fit against and deform to seal are not as sharp.

Jumping to old fix for washer and cylinders that doesn't seal. Clean a copper washer then heat and apply solder wipe off excess. I have even use this trick when only had a used washer to finish a brake job.

The suggestion to grab true NOS washers whenever you chance on them is a good one.

Cheers Phil
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