RCEME Units supporting 12 FD Regt RCA

[Don Birnie]

Looking for information on which RCEME Units would be supporting the 12 FD Regt RCA from D Day to 6 May 1945.

Thanks in advance.
Don

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Don Birnie
Looking for information on which RCEME Units would be supporting the 12 FD Regt RCA from D Day to 6 May 1945.

Hi Don;

In regards to your question "which RCEME units", 'technicaly' the answer is none. The Light Aid Detachment attached to the 12th Field Regiment, R.C.A. was No. 32 Light Aid Detachment (Type B), R.C.O.C. Also, at the Divisional level would have been attached from Army Troops, No. 3 Infantry Troops Workshop, R.C.O.C.

Both units, No. 32 L.A.D. (B), R.C.O.C. and No. 3 Inf Tps Wksp, R.C.O.C. were never allocated to the Corps of Canadian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, they both remained Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps.

Cheers

[Don Birnie]

First thanks for the reply Mark.
How I have more questions but first let me explain why I'm looking .
I'm now the proud owner of a 1942 Ford Machinery Truck Type KL
It needs a little TLC including a paint job.
As I have served the Guns for 31 years in the 11FD BTY which was mobilized with the 69th in May of 1940 as part of 12FD Regt RCA and as the RSM of the 11FD Regt RCA which has a 1941 F-GT limber and 25 PDR I would like to mark the truck with the TAC Signs of the unit that supported the 12 FD RCA.
Now the questions. Would these units use this type of vehicles and would they be the ones that converted the Priests to the Kangroos.
Also would you know what TAC signs these vehicles would carry.

Thanks in advance
Don

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

In the frantic 1-week rebuild and conversion of the Priests, almost all Divisional and Corps assets had a part in the process, which averaged 20 hours/day. The KLs would have been there, as there was much welding required. I suspect 32 LAD (B) will have had at least one for rudimentary repairs, and at some point, that it will have had a part in the operation, given their prior familiarity with the Priests.

Perhaps Mark can confirm.

If you wish to mark it up as such, you want a white "42" on a black background as a unit sign. This would go on the right front of the bonnet. Left front would be the gold maple leaf on gray/green for the 3rd CID. Reverse the signs on the rear. A cockeyed white star underneath the W/D number painted on the doors is a nice touch as well.

The above information is eff Jan 1944 and is presumably good for Normandy. There is some indication (according to Beldam) that by May 45, the unit sign had changed to a white "42" on a background of horizontal bands blue/yellow/red (top to bottom), but I don't know when this transformation may have occurred.

Between us, we'll sort all this stuff out by the time you need it...

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Don Birnie
I'm now the proud owner of a 1942 Ford Machinery Truck Type KL
It needs a little TLC including a paint job.

Don, as a matter of interest, would this be the ex-Chris Vickery Ford KL Machinery he offered for sale last September? Would love to hear where that nice truck went.

Great to hear you want to mark it as a truck used in the making of one of Canada's battlefield innovations!

Cheers,
Hanno

By the way, Chris' truck isn't the same one as Rob Love's, now is it?

Source: http://www.users.bigpond.com/ROD_DIERY/RESTO.html

[rob love]

The truck Chris had for sale was indeed once mine. It's history traces back to the 36 tech sqn in MooseJaw Sask.
While one can certainly put on any markings one wants on his own truck, hopefully he will also keep record of the markings which were on it in the first place.
If this is the same truck then it has been to:
*MooseJaw (36 tech sqn) (1942-?)
*Winnipeg for it's secondary carreer at a welding shop
*Purchased from welding shop to be cannabalised for parts by Dave Dunlop (parts like the doors, windows, etc..used on a sigs van which was never completed; now owned by George Mcgowan) Remains of KL left at the welding shop (mid 80s)
*Remains taken home by the brother-in-law of the welding shop and left to reside in the farm yard until discovered by Gordon Falk (90)
*purchased by Rob Love (1992)and returned to MooseJaw where the markings were later found to indicate it's return to it's home city
*Followed Rob to Manitoba (96)
*sold to Chris Vickery in Rockwood On. (2001)
*???

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by rob love
The truck Chris had for sale was indeed once mine. It's history traces back to the 36 tech sqn in MooseJaw Sask.
While one can certainly put on any markings one wants on his own truck, hopefully he will also keep record of the markings which were on it in the first place.

Rob, I love the "paper trail" of a vehicle as much as the vehicle itself. A prime example is that lovely 1940 F15 which reputedly had been issued to the SOE.
Indeed all too often restorers forget to document the known history of their vehicles. My F15A carries 1st Canadian Army markings which were copied from original markings found under the paint when it was first restored. If indeed I repaint it in a 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment livery as planned, I will have to make sure its provenance is properly recorded.

Cheers,
Hanno

[Don Birnie]

Yes indeed it was the truck Chris owned.
And thank you Rob for the history of the vehicle.
Questions now, What is the history of the 36 Tech Sqn and are the TAC signs and what are they in the picture for that unit.
Thanks
Don

[rob love]

36 Tech sqn was the militia unit RCEME which was located in MooseJaw. I had sanded down the unit markings while the vehicle was still in Manitoba, and on my return to MJ, I asked a retired ET (the short term given to the MWO/CWO of a maint unit or section) if he had any info on the 36 tech sqn. He told me he though it was a MJ vehicle but I doubted him. The next year, while on a course in Borden, I asked the museum if they had any info on the various tech sqn numbers. They said no, and at the same time I reached for an old stack of EME journals, and mentioned that sometimes info could be found in them. I opened a random one up to it's center page and there was a map showing all the tech sqns in Canada.
The cowl of the vehicle had been butchered for the installation of a heater so it has since been replaced from another donor. I have photos of the origional yellow cowls' markings which included the prairie command shield along with the later western command (which absorbed the prairie command in the late 50s) and if memory serves, also included a MD10 marking on the right cowl beneath these two markings. The marking on the left cowl; that of the RCEME flag with the 36 tech sqn, was just as it is now.
The doors were missing and replaced as well. The DND numbers on them came from one of the doors used on it now. I tried to go through the archived moose jaw herald photos at the library to find a photo of this truck (it was the only KL in MJ) but never did find it. There was also the retired Colonal still in town who said he had photos but never did find them for me.
Mechanically, the truck went through a pretty extensive rebuild. I even had the axles in half to replace the inner seals. The complete brake system was replaced including the M-cyl, all wheel cyls, all steel lines, and all flex lines. The shoes were actually in good shape.
The engine had taken on water over the years and I installed the engine out of the welder which was found at a neighbors of Dave Thompson of stead MB. This engine proved to be in excellent shape.
It was too bad about the origional engine as it was a rebuild, and the clutch even still had the words "this side towards engine" visible on the lining.
Tires were all replaced with Ferret runflat type, and the canvas was all redone. Wiring was also brand new, using cloth covered wire.
I had to safety the truck in Manitoba and thats when the turn signals went on it. It was a very heavy truck to drive, and I towed it with the militia's MLVW at 60 kmh from MJ to Wpg several times to participate in some of the larger parades like the 50th of D-day and VE day.
All in all, 36 tech sqns contribution to the world were fairly minor. Some info on it can be found if you get a hold of some of the RCEME journals of the 50s. You could also try and contact Rick Yuke who still resides in MJ and has been on this board a few times. He could well know if the old Col is still around.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Don Birnie
First thanks for the reply Mark.
How I have more questions but first let me explain why I'm looking .

Now the questions. Would these units use this type of vehicles and would they be the ones that converted the Priests to the Kangroos.
Also would you know what TAC signs these vehicles would carry.

Hi Don;

Been away, will get my notes together and answer shortly.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Don Birnie
Would these units use this type of vehicles

Hi Don;

No. 32 Light Aid Detachment (Type B), R.C.O.C. would not have been a 'user unit' of a Truck, 15-cwt, Machinery "KL", - they were a TYPE "B" LAD, so would not have had an entitlement for a 'KL', and I cannot find any reference to them being issued with one (an increment) while the 12th Field Regiment, RCA operated the Priest SPG equipments.

In reference to AWD Kangaroo, there were four 'KLs' requested by Maj. Wiggan to assist in the conversion of the Priest SPG equipment to 'APCs', more to follow on who they came from.

Cheers

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
In reference to AWD Kangaroo, there were four 'KLs' requested by Maj. Wiggan to assist in the conversion of the Priest SPG equipment to 'APCs', more to follow on who they came from.

Now you're treading on MY turf, Marko... I'll be VERY interested to know this stuff, and more to the point, where it comes from (ie the source). Even the guys I have spoken to who were there at the time don't know who else was there. All they remember were 20-hour days....

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Now you're treading on MY turf, Marko... I'll be VERY interested to know this stuff, and more to the point, where it comes from (ie the source). Even the guys I have spoken to who were there at the time don't know who else was there. All they remember were 20-hour days....

Hi Geoff;

If your referring to the "there were four 'KLs' requested by Maj. Wiggan to assist " - the Source is the War Diary of No. 2 Tank Troops Workshop - the pages dealing with AWD Kangaroo, 1 Aug to 10 Aug 44.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Don Birnie
Now the questions. Would these units use this type of vehicles and would they be the ones that converted the Priests to the Kangroos. Also would you know what TAC signs these vehicles would carry.

Hi Don;

Here are two possibilities for 'marking' your 'KL' if you are still interested in 'marking' it as a vehicle that supported AWD KANGAROO, during the conversion of the Priest equipments to APCs:

1. - a 'KL' of No. 2 Tank Troops Workshop, R.C.O.C.
or
2. - a 'KL' of No. 4 Armoured Troops Workshop, R.C.O.C.

For suggestion # 1 - 2 Tk Tps Wksp - the Arm of Service (AoS) marking used, would be the figures '1005' in white centred on a background of (from top to bottom-horizontal) blue, yellow, red, with a 2" (inch) white bar running diagonally from the upper left hand corner to the bottom right had corner, with a break in the centre for the 'Unit Serial Code' of '1005'. The Formation Sign (Fmn Sign) used would have been that of G.H.Q. & L. of C. Troops, 21st Army Group, a red shield with a blue cross centred on the shield. (top diagram of the attached image).

For suggestion # 2 - 4 Armd Tps Wksp - the Arm of Service (AoS) marking used, would be the figures '73' in white centred on a background of (from top to bottom-horizontal) blue, yellow, red, with a 2" (inch) white bar running across the bottom. The Formation Sign (Fmn Sign) used would have been that of First Canadian Army (bottom diagram of the attached image).

The bridge class plate that is already affixed in your photo is in the right place. As of April 1944, the directives state that there was to be an 'allied white star' within a circle painted atop the cab roof for air recognization. Regarding the 'allied star' on the cab doors, very soon after the invasion, these were usually painted out due to the fact that they made excellent aiming marks for the Germans. As for 'tac marks', I can't think of any off hand that a ' KL' would carry.

Just some suggestions Don.

Cheers

P.S. - you'll have to excuse my drawing skills, but I think you'll get the general idea.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Don;

Here are two more possibilities for 'marking' your 'KL' if you are still interested in 'marking' it as a vehicle that supported AWD KANGAROO, during the conversion of the Priest equipments to APCs, and one for if your interested in 'marking' it as a vehicle of the LAD that was attached to 1st APCR, C.A.C. from Oct 44 onwards:

1. - a 'KL' of No. 43 Light Aid Detachment (Type C), R.C.O.C. (LAD attached to "F" Squadron, 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), C.A.C.)(Army Troops)
or
2. - 'KL' of No. 88 Light Aid Detachment (Type C), R.C.O.C. (LAD attached to "E" Squadron, 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), C.A.C.)(Corps Troops)
or
3. - 'KL' of No. 123 Light Aid Detachment (Type E), R.C.E.M.E. (LAD attached to 1st Armoured Personnel Carrier Regiment, C.A.C., from 24 Oct 44)

For suggestion # 1 - 43 LAD (C) - the Arm of Service (AoS) marking used, would be the figures '465' in white centred on a background of (from top to bottom-horizontal) blue, yellow, red, with a 2" (inch) white bar running across the bottom (denoting Army Troops). The Formation Sign (Fmn Sign) used would have been that of First Canadian Army. (top diagram of the attached image).

For suggestion # 2 - 88 LAD (C) - the Arm of Service (AoS) marking used, would be the figures '465' in white centred on a background of (from top to bottom-horizontal) blue, yellow, red, with a 2" (inch) white bar running across the top (denoting Corps Troops). The Formation Sign (Fmn Sign) used would have been that of the Canadian II Corps (middle diagram of the attached image).

For suggestion # 3 - 123 LAD (E) - the Arm of Service (AoS) marking used, would be the figures '157' in white centred on a background of (from top to bottom-horizontal) blue, yellow, red. The Formation Sign (Fmn Sign) used would have been that of the British 79th Armd Div. (bottom diagram of the attached image).

Hope this helps Don.

Cheers

[Don Birnie]

Mark sorry took so long to reply. Been out of town.
First I what to thank you for taking the time to research all this information.
Its gentlemen like yourself and the others that make it a pleasure to be part of this fourm.
You take YOUR time and knowlege and freely share it with people you don't even know.
Its this kind of help that allows others like myself to contine to learn more .
But now comes the hard part.
Do I mark the vehicle to IT's history as Rob has told or as a replica of a vehicle that took part in an important event of my Regiment's history.
ALL feed back is welcome.

Thanks in Advance
Don Birnie

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Don Birnie
What is the history of the 36 Tech Sqn.

Don;

36 Tech Sqn, RCEME (Reserve Force) - life span was 1950 to ? - Will get back to you with more detailed info.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Don;

I hope the following is not to confusing regarding the history of 36 Tech Sqn, RCEME, their history can be traced back through a melting pot of RCOC and RCEME units, but for the purposes of what you asked, I've used the block period of 1941 through to 1950, to trace their lineage.

Lineage of 36th Technical Squadron; RCEME (Reserve Force):

36 Tech Sqn, RCEME (RF) (a component part of 7 Tech Regt, RCEME (RF)) was formed in Moose Jaw in 1950.

Three Moose Jaw based RCEME units preceeded 36 Tech Sqn, RCEME; these were:

No. 16 Armoured Workshop, RCEME
No. 33 Armoured Troops Recovery Unit, RCEME
No. 155 Light Aid Detachment (Type C), RCEME

all three of the above mentioned units were disbanded effective 22 March 1950, with 36 Tech Sqn, RCEME being authorized effective 22 March 1950, based in Moose Jaw.

Lineage:

1) - No. 16 Armoured Workshop, RCEME:

(Military District No. 10)

No. 1 Cavalry Divisional Ordnance Workshop, RCOC and No. 10 District Store Section, RCOC were disbanded (Effective 31 August 1941) and reorganized as No. 6 (Reserve) Divisional Ordnance Workshop, RCOC (Effective 1 September 1941) - (Authority: GO 290/41)

No. 6 (Reserve) Divisional Ordnance Workshop, RCOC was converted and redesignated No. 3 (Reserve) Infantry Brigade Workshop, RCEME (Effective 15 July 1944) - (Authority: GO 431/44)

No. 3 (Reserve) Infantry Brigade Workshop, RCEME was redesignated No. 16 Infantry Brigade Workshop, RCEME (Effective 1 April 1946) - (Authority: GO 116/46)

(Prairie Command - Moose Jaw)

No. 16 Infantry Brigade Workshop, RCEME was converted and redesignated No. 16 Armoured Workshop, RCEME (Effective 19 June 1947) - (Authority: CAO 76-3 Issue 43/47)

No. 16 Armoured Workshop, RCEME was disbanded effective 22 March 1950 (Authority: CAO 78-3 Issue 173/50)

********************
2) - No. 33 Armoured Troops Recovery Unit, RCEME:

(Military District No. 12)

No. 12 District Store Section, RCOC were disbanded (Effective 31 August 1941) and reorganized as No. 6 (Reserve) Divisional Ordnance Field Park, RCOC (Effective 1 September 1941) - (Authority: GO 290/41)

No. 6 (Reserve) Divisional Ordnance Field Park, RCOC was converted and redesignated No. 4 (Reserve) Infantry Troops Workshop, RCEME (Effective 15 July 1944) - (Authority: GO 431/44)

No. 4 (Reserve) Infantry Troops Workshop, RCEME was converted and redesignated No. 33 Tank Troops Workshop, RCEME (Effective 1 April 1946) - (Authority: GO 115/46)

(Prairie Command - Moose Jaw)

No. 33 Tank Troops Workshop, RCEME was converted and redesignated No. 33 Armoured Troops Recovery Unit, RCEME (Effective 19 June 1947) - (Authority: CAO 76-3 Issue 43/47)

No. 33 Armoured Troops Recovery Unit, RCEME was disbanded effective 22 March 1950 (Authority: CAO 78-3 Issue 173/50)

********************
3) - No. 155 Light Aid Detachment (Type C), RCEME:

(Military District No. 12/Prairie Command)

No. 155 Light Aid Detachment (Type C), RCEME was authorized as a Reserve Unit of the Canadian Army effective 1 April 1946 (Authority: GO 114/46)

(Prairie Command - Moose Jaw)

No. 155 Light Aid Detachment (Type C), RCEME was disbanded effective 22 March 1950 (Authority: CAO 110-3 Issue 173/50)

********************
4) 36th Technical Squadron, RCEME (Reserve Force):

(Prairie Command - Moose Jaw)

36th Technical Squadron, RCEME was authorized as a Reserve Unit of the Canadian Army effective 22 March 1950 (Authority: CAO 110-3 Issue 173/50).

I have no other information regarding 36 Tech Sqn, RCEME, to the best of my knowledge, they were around until at least the disbandment and reorganization of the RCEME (Militia) in 1970.

Hope this all makes sense.

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Don Birnie
But now comes the hard part.
Do I mark the vehicle to IT's history as Rob has told or as a replica of a vehicle that took part in an important event of my Regiment's history.

Don, here's what I (shall) do: record the history and markings as you know it (Rob and Mark have given you more than most vehicle collectors could wish for). Make a file and update it when you find any markings or other identifying features while working on your truck. If possible, ask any previous owners for pictures, records, details etc. Now you have made sure it's known history is recorded.
Next, find out what the markings would be on the same type of vehicle that took part in an important event of your Regiment's history (Mark, thanks again ). Put the material in your truck's file. Mark the truck accordingly. Take a piece of board and note details about it's known history and current identity. Take to events/shows and display the truck with the info board. Enjoy the talks it will invite.

My 2 €-cents worth,
Hanno

[Don Birnie]

Again thanks Mark for the information Can't thank you enough.
Hanno thank you for your suggestion.I think I just might use it.
I mean I could use the history of the vehicle and then explain that this same type of vehicle was used in the convertion of Priests to Kangroos.
I'll probably just paint the truck the basic colour and as you suggest make up an info board with the two markings.
You know I've only had the truck a short time and already I've had my neighbours asking questions about it.
The ones that seem the most intrested are the young lads.I never knew there were that many kids in the neighbourhood.
They are amased that they where built in Canada.
As one said, they bet that even their parents don't know.And that is my whole idea, to show what the Canadian Auto Industry
did to the help the War effort.
Again Thank You both .

Don