Pickaxe dimensions

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Who knows the dimensions of the pick head and its helve, as used on CMPs?

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[Hanno Spoelstra]

PS: From the tool packing list one can see only one pickaxe head + helve were issued per five vehicles:

Source: ORIGINAL CMP Ford Tool Packing List

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[Eric B]

Hello Hanno

Mine are 22 3/4 for the pickaxe head and 3 ft for the Helve. These are DND issued and dated 1941. I am sure they are the same size as the ones on the vehicles.

Thanks
Eric

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Eric B

Mine are 22 3/4 for the pickaxe head and 3 ft for the Helve. These are DND issued and dated 1941. I am sure they are the same size as the ones on the vehicles.

Hello Eric,

Thnaks for posting the dimensions.

Arie Hamer measured up the one on his HUP and confirmed the head is 58 cm. long. Good to know the helve is 91.5 cm.

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[Lynn Eades]

Hanno, the two shown in your two photos are (obviously) different. The first is an American type, while the second is British (as found on carriers). The American pick heads come in different lengths (not sure about military ones), and I wonder if that is why the one on the back of the CMP is not sitting its end against the rub plate.
Interestingly I have a pick mount that takes (what I assume to be?) an American pick, but has a BSF thread on the stud.
The shorter (lower) one is from a Canadian U.C.
The longer (higher) one , I'd like to know its original application?
The Australian carrier used the American pick, but used Unified thread forms (plus BA for small stuff) So, i don't think its from there.

Btw, with the British helves, the early ones had a steel ring at the hand end (WWI) the later ones were plain. These were used through WWI and WWII.

[Lynn Eades]

Further: I've had a minor epiphany. I believe this was made to fit the carrier as well (same mounting) Maybe it was to do with supply of picks? I will be watching for carrier pictures with the U.S style pick from now on.
I had assumed that this was from An Australian pattern carrier, until I checked the thread of the stud.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rob love

I have found that pretty much any Canadian made vehicle that has a brackets for the pick axe, used the British pattern of pick axe head and handle. I had not noticed before that the pick axe in the photo of the cmp tool layout is a US pattern version.

HUPs all seem to have the US type?

Pictures shared by Marty Morren

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[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Also note that there are multiple pictures of tool layouts (Clives CD has 3), one for each type of CMP so it seems.....but I guess they were all done in one picture session, as most tools are the very same ones, while only some items differ.

New Zealand transport kit inspection, Egypt, 1941.

"US" pick?

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[Hanno Spoelstra]

Pickaxes from a Czech collector. Obviously, they are not all the exact same length. Due to (hand) forging by different manufacturers, or because they had a different application? Length is 55, 59 and 60 cm.

Radek checked and all three fit the bracket on his Austin truck.

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[Lynn Eades]

Yes Hanno. The British style has a steel wrap that the pick head sits on. The handles you show would be U.S style.
There is a British miners pick in the same style, but it is substantially smaller. It is about half way between the Vehicle one and the infantry one that has the webb cover and the mine thingy on some handles. I'm not very knowledgeable on them either.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

The British style has a steel wrap that the pick head sits on. The handles you show would be U.S style.

But the heading tool layout photo shows a plain wooden helve WITHOUT steel reinforcements?

Do you mean to say Canada used the U.S. style and not British?

In a way that would make sense, as the packing list states the material remains with the vehicle when delivered to customer. So the tools were supplied ex-works, and were thus sourced in North America, correct?

Anyway, let's keep digging

[rob love]

I have always differentiated the British pick from the US pick by the extra shank on the pick axe head for the US one, vs the no shank on the British one. As Lynn mentions, the British one has the metal reinforced handle at the head, and a ring on the bottom. The US handle is all wood and larger diameter.

I have found that pretty much any Canadian made vehicle that has a brackets for the pick axe, used the British pattern of pick axe head and handle. I had not noticed before that the pick axe in the photo of the cmp tool layout is a US pattern version.

A surplus store in Calgary Alberta had hundreds of the WW2 Cdn pick axe heads and dozens of the handles, all to the British pattern.

In the 1950s, the Canadian military went to the M-series vehicles (aside from the Centurion, the Ferret, and the Triumph Motorcycle) and the US pattern pick became the norm. When I was still in the service, you would get the odd WW2 Cdn pick axe head mixed in with the US ones when ordered from supply.

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by rob love

I have always differentiated the British pick from the US pick by the extra shank on the pick axe head for the US one, vs the no shank on the British one. As Lynn mentions, the British one has the metal reinforced handle at the head, and a ring on the bottom. The US handle is all wood and larger diameter...

Paraphrased ...

The ferrule may be found marked ‘UNIVERSAL 2’ on one side.
The tool image layouts found in the Ford Canada universal carrier parts manuals, FUC-02, FUC-03 and FWC-02 show a pick helve with ferrule.

(British part numbers in FUC-03)

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[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rob love

I have always differentiated the British pick from the US pick by the extra shank on the pick axe head for the US one, vs the no shank on the British one. As Lynn mentions, the British one has the metal reinforced handle at the head, and a ring on the bottom. The US handle is all wood and larger diameter.

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Hanno, The (later)WWII handle did not have the band at the grip end. The pick head end will have the steel sleeve, to go with the head shown. (at least, I've never seen one that didn't) The logic is that the long hole in the American one stabilizes the handle in the head, whereas the smaller and shorter hole requires the steel sleeve to stabilize the head on the handle.

I've been wondering about the what you meant with the "extra shank on the US one vs. the no shank on the British one". Remember I am not a native English speaker.

Doing a picture search combined with Lynn's remark about the "long hole" I think I now have a grip on what the US pick looks like.

Note: the Oxford Dictionary of English states that both "pick" and "pickaxe" have the same meaning, that being a tool with a long handle at right angles to a curved iron or steel bar with a point at one end and a chisel or point at the other, used for breaking up hard ground or rock.

Pickaxe.jpg

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Yes Hanno. The British style has a steel wrap that the pick head sits on. The handles you show would be U.S style.
There is a British miners pick in the same style, but it is substantially smaller. It is about half way between the Vehicle one and the infantry one that has the webb cover and the mine thingy on some handles. I'm not very knowledgeable on them either.

That's probably the "Mattock, Telegraph", which has a pick and horizontal blade head and a steel wedge on the tip of the helve (presumably to aid in burying cables, as it wouldn't last long if used as a prybar).

I have an unissued one in the hoard, er: collection, but the helve was supplied 'unfinished' and won't go through the hole in the mattock head - I need to take a spokeshave to it, I suppose.

Chris.

[Lang]

Not as complete as Collin's post but Welland Vale Story from another site. Interesting how there are small differences.

http://progress-is-fine.blogspot.com...s-country.html

[rob love]

I was at one of the QMs on base to pick up some old tarpaulins to use here at the museum. The Sgt invited me to look down a row of shelving to look for anything MLVW, which are now obsolete, to see if we wanted it. While I found nothing of interest for the MLVW, I did spot two lonely no2 handles sitting by themselves. There was a stack of heads, but all were the US style. I pointed out that the handles would not fit the US heads, and a quick check showed they went right through. So they were added to the donation to the museum.

Although painted over the years, they were in fairly good condition, with one missing the lower ring. That one still has remnants of the Hercules decal on it, along with the Turner Day stamped on the handle. It was slightly shorter than the other one, at just 35 inches.
The second handle is a new one on me. It is embossed "Excelsior" and "2" on one side, and on the other side is "ST MARYS BEAVER" "Hespeler" which is located in Ontario, Canada. I was able to clean dis-assemble it, repaint the metal parts and clean the paint off the handle. That one will be going back to that unit on their Mk1 carrier which I am finishing off. It is 36" in length, which is a perfect fit for the carrier.

The head is one of the WV43 marked heads.