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  #1  
Old 28-04-14, 12:48
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Default UN / Canada / Cyprus beginings

Howdy,

When Canada first deployed to Cyprus it has been asserted that the Canadian troops used British Ferrets on loan.

Does anyone have images or can point me to images that definitively proves this statement. In addition any official paperwork that supports this would be invaluable.

If you don't have photos or paperwork were you there and did you see it happen?

This information is being sought to assist in the authentic recreation of that usage.

Thanks in advance


Robin
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  #2  
Old 28-04-14, 18:06
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My dad was in Cyprus in 64 as Sigs attached to the VanDoos. I know they used British land rovers and Bedfords. I have this photo but can't seem to find the Cyprus album.
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  #3  
Old 28-04-14, 19:24
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I have a series of press release photos which show the Canadian ferrets being prepped, loaded, unloaded (in Famagusta) and used in Cypress. The vehicles were unloaded March 30th, and there are photos of them being used for patrols in April.

According to a CF website, the advance elements of the Cdn Army started showing up in Cypress on 15 March. It would have been the LDSH who operated the ferrets, and the site does not mentin when they started showing up, or if the LDSH came at the same time, or even with the ferrets.

I would suggest that if Canada did borrow any British ferrets, then it would have been for a two week period or less. It would be very unlikely that the Canadians would re-mark them given the very short period of loan, and that is if it even happened.

As to Bedfords, we were still using them in the late 80s. But not because they came from the British army. We just often used fleets that were more easily sustainable in those outward theaters, just as you would see Mercedes Benz and VW used more often in Germany. That way we could draw on existing civilian supply sources, as opposed to trying to find pieces for North American vehicles where the civilian supply chain did not exist. Or even worse, trying to hold every piece to support every type of equipment.

During my tour in 89, the Iltis were already being packed up to return home as failures, and they were replaced with a fleet of Pajeros for the Jeep class, Toyotas for the 5/4 ton cargo class, and 3 ton Hinos to replace the 5/4 ton van style. All were chosen because similar civilian vehicles were available on the Island so their supply chains could be used. We also installed a commercial Holmes wrecker unit on the back of a Hino which replaced an old militia type 1980 Chevrolet 1 ton we had been using up to then. I was quite involved in that project in my last week there, and even was the one of the first to take it out on the line if I recall.

In those days, for parts, you filled out a paper 2302, they went out with the plane on Wednesdays back to Germany, and if Germany had it, then the part might be on the plane the next week, or maybe the week after. If it was coming from Canada, then you could be waiting weeks to months.

Things were quite a bit better for Afghanistan, however we still used local fleets of vehicles either as rentals or in some cases purchased. I won't go into specifics on those.
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Old 29-04-14, 01:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Craig View Post
When Canada first deployed to Cyprus it has been asserted that the Canadian troops used British Ferrets on loan.
Robin,

I've also read that Canadians used British Ferret scout cars in Cyprus, but it had nothing to do with a lack of scout cars available on initial deployment. Canadian Ferrets were available right from the beginning. Seven Ferrets (a troop) of the RCD were flown to Cyprus on Yukon aircraft at the same time as the R22eR. The remainder of the squadron arrived on HMCS Magnificent with the rest of the heavy vehicles.

The use of British Ferrets comes from photographs of Canadians using Ferrets with a turret, which the Canadian Mk I versions did not have. It might have been on the Canadian Ferret website, but the assertion was that any Canadian photographed operating a Ferret with a turret was in a British vehicle. I think the reason behind their usage was the extra protection it offered the vehicle commander. I'm afraid that's all I can recollect from what I read years ago.

So, look for photographs of Canadians operating scout cars with a turret, and then see if you can determine a British Army or Canadian Army registration number. It's as good a place as any to start.

Cheers,
Dan.
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  #5  
Old 29-04-14, 01:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Martel View Post
Robin,

The remainder of the squadron arrived on HMCS Magnificent with the rest of the heavy vehicles.
My references say it was the aircraft carrier Bonaventure that brought the ferrets across.

The turrets would make sense. Far better than the chicken cages 202 made up for our ferrets.
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  #6  
Old 29-04-14, 22:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Martel View Post
The remainder of the squadron arrived on HMCS Magnificent with the rest of the heavy vehicles.
Dan;

HMCS Magnificent served with the RCN from 1948 to 1957, at which point, it was replaced by HMCS Bonaventure. The Magnificent‘s last mission, was that of the deployment of the Canadian UNEF contingent during the Suez crisis of 1956.

HMCS Bonaventure was involved with the deployment of the Canadian UNFICYP contingent to Cyprus in 1964, reference: paragraph 74, which reads:

"the Canadian contribution would consist of the First Battalion, the Royal 22e Regiment and a reconnaissance squadron of the Royal Canadian Dragoons.(132) The force would be airlifted to Cyprus by the R.C.A.F.'s Transport Command, and vehicles and materiel would be shipped on board the aircraft carrier H.M.C.S. Bonaventure.(133),"

of DIRECTORATE OF HISTORY - CANADIAN FORCES HEADQUARTERS - Report Number 4 - Canada and Peace-keeping Operations, dated 22 October 1965.

Cheers
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Old 30-04-14, 00:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Martel View Post
The remainder of the squadron arrived on HMCS Magnificent with the rest of the heavy vehicles.
Must have been a typo. Of course I meant the Bonaventure. Damn stubby fingers.

Cheers,
Dan.
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  #8  
Old 30-04-14, 00:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Martel View Post
Must have been a typo. Of course I meant the Bonaventure. Damn stubby fingers.
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Old 30-04-14, 05:36
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Default Old Thread

This old thread may be of some help.
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8628
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  #10  
Old 30-04-14, 07:46
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Dear All,

I know I go on a bit about things but proof always wins out in the end. Thank you for your replies thus far.

I am a royal pain on this subject I know.

This is the only image I have been able to find. Have a look at it and tell me what you think, there are some interesting details if you look closely.

Regards

Robin
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Old 30-04-14, 07:48
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And here is a closer look

R
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  #12  
Old 04-05-14, 14:12
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I have also just found this, 8th Hussars in Germany.

Frankly I think we have a smoking gun here.

Second image of a Ferret in Canadian service with a turret but in a different theatre.

So, my deduction is that there is proof here that Canada used at least one turreted Ferret fair and square.

Next will be to find details of it, if we ever can,

R
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  #13  
Old 04-05-14, 15:53
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Turret is a drop on to the mk1 ferret. So it is quite possible someone somewhere managed to scrounge one up from the British forces. It may have been less than official. It may have also been possible that the powers that be authorized the purchase of one or more turrets, but these are the first I have seen on the subject.
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Old 04-05-14, 15:54
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Rob,

your post landed in at the same time I was making my post.

Yes I agree that the Ferret is somewhat of a Meccano set and it is only 17 bolts and the turret plate is mounted.

BUT.

IMHO the 8th Hussars picture substantiates the claim that I make that ONE lonely vehicle was either procurred or "made" into a turreted vehicle.

There is a Ferret turret in Ontario that I know of and will attempt to gun for the owner to shell out the info on where he acquired it from and to ascertain the trail of provenance. The chances are too thin otherwise!

All I can say is, never say never!

R

Last edited by Robin Craig; 04-05-14 at 15:59.
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Old 04-05-14, 17:24
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It may well be that we ended up with a turret on a ferret, but that doesn't mean the ferret is on loan from the British. The photos are too grainy to tell the difference.

Heck, I stuck a hard top on a M548 years ago.....obtained through a bit of hook and crook. May well have been the only one in Canada. When the other batteries tried to get the roofs for theirs, the LCMM said noway, and that was the end of that. But the hardtop on the B bty one remained until disposal. And if there was ever a place you needed a hardtop on a M548, it was here in Shilo. My next modification to it was going to be a hot water type crew compartment heater to replace the finicky and too hot APC heater that came with the vehicle and could not be relied on.
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Old 04-05-14, 18:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Craig View Post
I have also just found this, 8th Hussars in Germany.
Robin,

Where and when for this photograph? It looks like it came from a copy of the Canadian Army Journal.

Cheers,
Dan.
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  #17  
Old 04-05-14, 23:03
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The photo comes via a circuitous route, was published in the Beaver if I recall correctly.

2Lt Peck is sill alive and is going to be asked by a friend if he recalls anything.

Film at 11 or whenever.

Rob, I love it when people prove the exception to the rule.

I wont say anything about a fully Orange coloured Leopard tank as people will say it never happened.

R
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  #18  
Old 05-05-14, 11:33
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Exceptions to the Rule

The military is rife with exceptions to the rule which is interesting as it is an occupation based on rules. Exceptions are interesting and should be documented, but the key is not to dwell on them. By dwelling on them, too many people believe that the exceptions are the nom rather than what they are which is anomalies in a very large organization.
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Old 05-05-14, 13:28
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Further to your last Ed, I would expect that "exceptions" were somewhat ignored rather than documented, in light of happening in such an organization rife with rules...kinda like the ostrich head in the sand?
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  #20  
Old 05-05-14, 15:17
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Exceptions are not usually ignored. In recent years the DND even came out with a canforgen that un-authorised modifications to equipment would not be acceptable.

It was when the Iltis came out that Ottawa dictated that there were to be no field modifications including things like mapboards, map lights etc. There was to be no drilling of holes in the vehicle for anything unless it was for an authorized modification.

All that said, the strict rules sort of went sideways during Afghanistan. The LCMMs were very accommodating to the needs of the troops on the ground. Some unit procurements were accepted (like Eotech and ACOG scopes that were not in our system) which never would have flown before. But even then, vehicle modification teams would come either from the contractors who were in theater, or else teams that were sent from Canada. Modifications were not "ad-hoc".
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  #21  
Old 05-05-14, 20:47
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Default CDN Ferrets With Turrets in Cyprus

The rifle range at the Nicosia airport had two Ferret turrets sitting on the side all shot up. I was taken to see them while on exchange with Scout Car SQN of the 16/5th Lancers in '88, but I don't have a photo. We enjoyed bombing up and down the runway doing Ferret drag races and trying to drive around the go-kart track in the Ferret (much fun!). They had UN Markings but were UK European camouflage.

I know it doesn't answer your question directly but it shows there were spares on the Island and all we would have had to do is ask for them. The Brits were quite obliging that way.
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