close up picture of Mk1 Speedometer required

[RichardT10829]

Anyone able to post up a close up (square on) picture of a Mk1 Canadian speedometer ? there are images on the web but they are all offset etc or too far away.

[Lynn Eades]

MkI or MkI* (there is no smilie for poking you in the eye) Will this do?

[RichardT10829]

yes thanks.... Spoken to Kevin... i had not realised how radioactive the mk2 gauges were ! i have one in bits hence wanting to seize the chance to change the dial... my world fell out my backside when he messaged me, scary stuff ! scared to go back in the garage now

cheers Lynn that image is spot on

PS i did say Mk1 Canadian though

[Lynn Eades]

Apparently they are ok if you dont open them up. The glass is supposed to be enough to protect you.

[RichardT10829]

too late...its in bits

[Lew Skelton]

I have a workmate that ate a beta light, he is still going strong 18 years later.

[RichardT10829]

they reckon on aircraft gauges of the period, if unshielded by the glass the radiation output from the dial face is around 30x stronger than that of a sealed unit...... i take it the glass is lead crystal or something ? nothing except a huge block of lead will stop the gamma rays... the alpha and beta are a different matter.

[B. Harris]

Folks,

As with all watch faces, instuments and anything else that used Radium Paint...

The heads up to remember is....Just because the gauges dont glow anymore the danger still exists.

The radium actualy reacts with the paint and it causes the paint to glow. Now after so many years the paint starts to break down the glow stops BUT the activity still remains...unseen. This explains all the "dust" in the bottom of the gauges.

So if you must take apart those old instruments do it some where other than inside and wear PPE.

Glass is a great Beta blocker.However dont wear the old time radium watchs thru the airport radiation detectors or nuclear plant whole body monitors as they will set them off....(Been there done it)

Harris

[RichardT10829]

Yeah I sought advice from the pro's the reply was to avoid taking the covers off, but if the paint is undamaged you are less likely to absorb lethal amounts of radiation

[Lynn Eades]

Now that its night time over there... Do you glow in the dark?
Sorry... I just couldnt help my self.

It might be a good time to start a sticky thread with the info in it, as a warning to others who may yet be unaware?

[RichardT10829]

I would suggest that is a good idea for certain mind not all gauges from that period are radium luminised but it's better to be safe than dead....

[J Henry]

WOW, I didn't know that about those gauges and here the glass is broken on my MK-1 gauges and here I've been doing the touchy-feely thing!!

[RichardT10829]

Mk1 gauges so I am told are not radio active... still you need to be careful.... i have just been back down to the garage gloves mask etc and placed the dial back into its case and sealed it again.... it should be noted that there are breather holes all over the gauge bezzel so just because the glass is in situ, does not guarantee that the dust wont escape. luckily for me the face plate of the dial and needle are both in mint condition.

my findings so far on this subject for radium luminised gauges are that the radium brakes down over the years, if it is ingested / inhaled it enters the body, the body mistakes the matter as calcium and thus introduces it into the bone structure where it sits releasing alpha, beta, and gamma rays slowly through your body, it destroys the white blood cells, and its game over.... there is a large amount of information on the "Radium Girls" who used to paint dials and watch faces, they used to tip their brushes with their lips, paint their teeth, nails and lips (to suprise husbands and boyfriends) needless to say they all died young.

now to try and keep the hysteria down.... these girls were ingesting huge amounts over a long period of time.... i received an email from HPA i asked about the safety considerations

In 1942 these gauges may have been radium luminised but not all dials that self illuminate are coated with a radioactive material (chemical light reactions replaced this method of luminising dials and your dial may have already been restored or not been active in the first place). If the gauge still had its glass cover intact then there is no reason to suspect that you would receive any significant exposure. Even if the glass was cracked or removed, providing the paint on the dials was not damaged then again no significant contamination should arise

In future restoration projects, I would not attempt to dismantle a clock or dial assembly (ie remove the glass cover) and avoid those where the glass cover has been cracked or the dial has obviously been damaged.

[Doug Lavoie]

Richard,
Along the same lines are the WW11 marching compasses. They will most likely trip the gager as well. Rick De Bruyn did some checks on his, as well as mine. They were active as well.
Thought that this would expand on the gauge issue as well.
Doug

[jason meade]

The worst Gages i have seen here at the museum is the little compass that came with the silk excape kits given to airmen, they go right off the chart with the radacmeter,also speedo gages from 50,s military jeeps and m-135s.
Oh and all russian or eastern block equiptment.
Jason

[RichardT10829]

found this info on tinterweb regarding a study into those who used to paint the dials... as it happends after 1930 the death rate was significantly less (as they were no longer tipping the brushes with their lips etc).... it makes for an interesting read

RADIUM DIAL PAINTERS - What Happened to Them?

A printout of this document (in pdf format) is available at: Dial Painters.pdf .

Most everyone has heard about the tragedy that befell the young women who became dial painters. Their well-paying jobs, painting the hands and faces of clocks and watches with a radium paint, led many to an early and cruel death. The newspapers of that era, mid-to-late 1920s, described in excruciating detail the physical problems that befell "the women doomed to die". Many influential people took up the dial painters' cause in their attempts to obtain retribution through the courts for medical expenses and to punish the corporate blindness that led to their poisoning, but to no avail. What little financial support was obtained came too late for some, as legal maneuvering had delayed the trial outcomes until many of the painters were dead. A most readable description of these events has been written by Ross Mullner, in "Deadly Glow, The Radium Dial Worker Tragedy ", published by the American Public Health Association in 1999.

In his book Mullner lists one hundred twelve dial painters known to have died as the result of ingesting the radium-containing paint as they shaped their brushes with their lips. The cause of their deaths was undoubtedly exposure to high levels of radiation over an extended period of time. At that time, however, little was known about radiation or about its effects, with the result that many different reasons for their illnesses were proposed. Ultimately, radium was identified as the culprit, and they were considered to have been poisoned by radium.

Mullner then describes the intense study activated during and after World War II to find and study additional dial painters. The reason for this was that plutonium, to be used in atomic bombs, was known to deposit in bones and to emit alpha particles, just as radium did. What were the long term effects of radium in the body? How were these plutonium workers to be protected?

Eventually all of the studies of the radium cases were centralized into one institution, the Center for Human Radiobiology at the Argonne National Laboratory. By the time this radium study was terminated in 1993, 3,161 radium dial painters had been identified and 1,575 of them had been seen and studied. (A total of 6,675 people containing radium had been identified and 2,403 of them had been located and measured. These numbers include persons who were exposed to radium in a variety of ways in addition dial painting.) Following the termination of this study, all the tabulated data was posted on the Internet, along with data obtained from other large studies of the effects of radiation on humans1.

After the well published trials were over it was realized that most dial painters did not show any effects that could be attributed to "radium poisoning", and thus the dial painting industry continued, but at much reduced levels. With the passage of time some dial painters were diagnosed with malignancies arising in bone, identified as bone sarcomas. Much later a second kind of malignancy was recognized as being due to radium, carcinomas arising in the paranasal sinuses or the mastoid air cells. Since these malignancies are seldom seen in the general population they were quickly recognized as being induced by radium in the body. Surprisingly, no other malignancies or syndromes could be statistically associated with radium deposited within the human body.

With the advent of World War II the need for aircraft instruments that could be seen in the dark created an urgent need for the continual use of radium dials and thus the dial painting industry flourished. This time, however, the work was carried on with strict attention to the protection of the painters. Indeed, even before this time the awareness of the problem was sufficient to prevent a repeat of the tragedy of the 1920s. The management of the dial painting plants had issued a warning to the dial painters in 1925 not to tip their brushes with their lips. No dial painter who started in this industry after that date ever developed either of the types of radium induced malignancies nor showed any effects that could be attributed to radium

This did not mean that these later dial painters did not acquire radium within their bodies, for almost every dial painter that was measured in the subsequent search for those in this industry was found to have measurable radium within their bodies. However, the level within their bodies was significantly lower than the levels seen in the pre-1926 period. This is demonstrated in the diagram at the end of this document, where each of 1,468 dial painters is represented by a mark on the diagram defined by the date they started painting and the quantity of radium that had entered their body. The painters who ultimately developed one of the radium-induced malignancies are plotted as red symbols while those who never developed such malignancies are plotted in black.

To understand the construction of this plot it is necessary to consider some facts about radium. Radium exists in several different forms, depending upon its parent All of the radium on earth was and is being continually created by the radioactive decay of some parent radioactive element. Ra-226, the most common form of radium, is created during the decay of the radioactive element uranium, specifically U-238, an element with a half-life of about 4.5 x 109 years. This radium was often used by the medical profession to treat many kinds of ailments, but it was very expensive. It was used in the dial painting industry as well, but it was often mixed with a less expensive form of radium, Ra-228. Ra-228 is created during the decay of thorium, Th-232, which has a half-life of about 1.4 x 1010 years. Radium is on the earth today only because its parents have such long half-lives that they have not had time to completely disappear since the earth was formed.

These two radium elements are quite different. Ra-226, half-life 1620 years, emits an alpha particle, and is transformed into radon (half-life 3.8 days); eight more radioactive decays, which emit either alpha or beta particles, take place before it becomes an atom of non-radioactive lead. However, much of the radon, with its 3.8 day half-life, has time to reach the body fluids and be exhaled from the body through the lungs before it decays. Two-thirds of the radon Rn-222 produced in the body escapes in this fashion. The eight radioactive decays that follow this exhaled radon then take place outside of the body.

In contrast, Ra-228, half-life 6.7 years, emits a beta particle when it decays. A total of nine radioactive decays, either alpha or beta, occur before a stable atom of lead is left to replace of the original radium atom. There is an atom of radon created in this chain of events, but since its half-life is only 55 seconds, very little escapes in the breath before it decays into a non-gaseous element. Thus Ra-228 delivers more energy to the surrounding tissues than does an equivalent quantity of Ra-226.

The complete measurement of radium in the body of a dial painter yields two values, one for Ra-226 and one for Ra-228. Since the ratio of Ra-228 to Ra-226 might vary with each batch of paint being used, it was not possible to compare radium cases on the basis of the quantity of radium within the body. What was needed was a method of defining a "radium equivalent", so all measured cases could be expressed in the same units. It has been determined that, per microcurie (µCi) of intake, Ra-228 is 2.5 times as effective as Ra-226 in inducing bone sarcomas. Thus a unit, Initial Systemic Intake2, may be used to define the risk of the induction of a bone sarcoma in a given dial painter. It is the sum of the activity of Ra-226, in µCi, that entered the body plus two and a half times the activity of Ra-228, in µCi, that entered the body.

Note the two red lines drawn on this plot; the vertical line is drawn at the year 1926, the horizontal one at an Initial Systemic Intake value of 100 µCi. There are no malignancies (red diamonds) in or after 1926, indicating that no dial painter who started after this date ever experienced one of the known radium-induced malignancies. There are no red diamonds below the horizontal line drawn at 100 µCi, indicating that an intake of greater than 100 µCi is required to induce the radium-induced malignancies.

It is also clear that the simple rule "Do not tip the brush with your lips" was all that was necessary to reduce markedly the amount of radium acquired by these dial painters. Note that this plot only shows dial painters who entered the industry before 1950. There were very few dial painters who started after this date, and their working conditions were so strictly monitored that none had high intakes. None of these malignancies has ever been diagnosed in post-1950 painters.

So, what did happen to these dial painters? Two studies on their survival times by Stehney of the Center for Human Radiobiology provide the answers3,4. The first, published in 1978, examined female dial painters who started work before 1930. There were 1235 women employed before 1930 for whom year of birth and year of death, or date of removal from the study, were known. The closing date for the study was 1976. Their survival was compared to the survival of white women born at the same time who had no exposure to radium. There were 529 deaths observed before age 85 in the dial painter population while only 461 were expected, demonstrating a definite life-shortening. When those cases who died from either of the two known radium-induced malignancies were eliminated from the population, there were now 455 observed deaths and 460 expected deaths. Two conclusions were apparent; first, dial painting before 1930 was not a safe occupation, and second, if one escaped the radium-induced malignancies, there was no other cause of death that decreased the life expectancy of the dial painters

Stehney's second study, extended to include all dial painters who started work before 1950, confirmed the first study. There was very little evidence that this population of radium-burdened individuals suffered any life-shortening disorders other then radium-induced malignancies. Further, as indicated by the plot printed above, there appears to be a threshold intake level below which no radium-induced malignancies have been diagnosed.

These are remarkable conclusions, and clearly conflict with the conventional wisdom that insists that all radiation is harmful. They come as no surprise to those of the scientific community who have been familiar with the studies of radioisotopes deposited within the human body, but such information has not been widely disseminated among the public.

A monograph has been published describing the findings of the radium studies program at the Argonne National Laboratory 5, but is now out of print. It included a section containing some of the data collected on persons whose body contents of radium have been measured. This is now available on the Internet6. Likewise, as mentioned previously, all of the data collected on the radium dial painters and others exposed to radium has been posted on the Internet1.

REFERENCES

1. http://cedr.lbl.gov/

2. Rowland, R. E., Stehney, A. F., and Lucas, H. F., Jr.: Dose-response relationships for female radium dial workers, Rad. Research, 76: 368-383 (1978).

3. Stehney, A. F., H. F. Lucas, R. E. Rowland. Survival times of women radium dial workers first exposed before 1930. In: Late Biological Effects of Ionizing Radiation. proceedings of I.A.E.A. Symp., Vienna 1: 333-351. (1978).

4. Stehney, A. F. Survival times of pre-1950 U.S. women radium dial workers. Proceedings of the International Seminar "Health effects of internally deposited radionuclides: emphasis on radium and thorium", Heidelberg, Germany, pp. 149-155. (1994).

5 Rowland, R. E. Radium in Humans: A Review of U. S. Studies. Argonne National Laboratory, Argonne Ill. (1994).

6. http://www.osti.gov/bridge/search.easy.jsp?

[Search for R. E. Rowland under Author, Radium In Humans is available in PDF format.]

[RichardT10829]

little bit of an update... as you can see, this issue with gauges has sparked my attention... I took the liberty of sending some swabs away from my gauge dial to the University of Leeds Radiation Protection Service after some calls back and forth about the issue of the gauges, they have offered to test the swabs to see what / if they are radioactive, and if so what dangers they pose. I did some research and it appears despite age, you can still agitate the luminous particles by use of a black light, so you can see what potentially is coated with the radium.

Now then, i was initially under the impression (that you will die quickly of cancer) if you open the gauge as the white segments were all radium painted.......here is what a Mk2 gauge looked like when it was new and the paint glowed


yes thats right..... the 3 pip segments nd needle tip

here is the same gauge without blacklight


note the segments that glow are an off brown colour... so points to avoid are two very minute segments and the tip of the needle.

Iam awaiting the results from the lab, however the Dr of the department who specialises in this area said the following, and I quote

"I wouldn’t worry overmuch about contamination. If there is any left the amounts will be really small, and will be on the bench or your coveralls…and there’s far worse things in garden soil and take-away food"


Each person needs to do their homework on any gauge of this era before messing with it, if the white paint is an off brown its highly likely radioactive so be careful out there and exercise caution / common sense at all times kids.

i watched a youtube video of someone testing a spitfire altimeter out of its case everything on the gauge was painted with RLP and the gauge max'd out at 1 Milli sv / hour

here is the link, enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xirtUF-iJXA

[Michael R.]

under black light . . . the bright spot being the lamp bulb filament reflecting in the speedometer lens.

[RichardT10829]

Cheers buddy,

I will be knocking out Mk1 dial faces shortly for those that want them

[RichardT10829]

as promised here are the results from the swabs taken from the opened Mk2 gauge

Richard

Been on leave. The swab for the bench (pre clean) and the dial face, and also the gloves showed levels of radium contamination. Both of these were expected. The bench swab (post clean) still showed some contamination, but you’ve done a good job cleaning up. I suggest cleaning the bench thoroughly another three times with 10% solution of domestos or similar (its very similar to the reagents we use professionally). Thick paper towels are best, and keep changing the gloves. If your bench is wooden perhaps waxing or varnishing will ensure anything left will remain fixed.

Put all your rubbish and coveralls in black bin liners and dispose of to the local tip as non-recyclables…this is ok.

When opening any dials be aware that they will be thoroughly contaminated inside, including the inner parts. If you need to do this construct a polythene glove box from a nailed up wooden frame and heavy duty plastic from B&Q. You’ll need to think about hand holes, but something that makes a tight fit.

Don’t sweep the garage floor, this will get the dust in the air. If you have a Dyson or other cyclone cleaner or cleaner fitted with a HEPA filter use this. There is unlikely to be anything much on the floor. Alternatively wash out the floor with a hosepipe.

If you really think you want a professional decontamination I can do this as private work (a lot cheaper) but it will be around £500-600. However, I really don’t think this is necessary given the levels found on your wipes.

Regards

Ian


my reply
"Thanks for that Ian, I take it the amounts were very small what ppm"



30 counts per second above background on a scintillation counter (very sensitive). About the same count rate you’d get from a ‘hot’ piece of granite from Cornwall.

And consider that between the 1930s to 60s people used to take radium bath salts and enemas and Lord knows what other ‘recreational’ products…and of course thermal springs are loaded with radioactive materials, as are bananas Lo-Salt and the sea.

So long as you don’t lick your bench you’ll be fine.

[kevin powles]

Richard, Why dont you just leave those dials alone?. Dont ecourage others to open them up!

I am guessing the guy at Leeds university holds no formal qualification and his advice is just plain foolish.

Kevin.

[RichardT10829]

Quite the opposite, he is the resident Dr who specialises in Radiological contamination... working for University of Leeds Radiation Protection Service... I am not encouraging anyone to do anything just sharing my findings on these things ass it appears not enough is known within the hobby about dangers etc... some people have contacted me asking for repro Mk1 dial faces and all have been advised that there is a risk by opening the Mk2 dial's. The thread has been running since 25th July perhaps you would now like to share and quantify your personal findings and perhaps your qualifications (or qualifications of those who you sought advice from) on the subject to give us a different perspective on this issue, as it is clearly different from the results I have been given from the Lab ?

If you would like to know more about the contact i have spoken with please google Dr Ian K Haslam B.Sc. Ph.D. M.S.R.P. "Radiation Protection Service"


stay safe folks

[kevin powles]

Richie,

I am a Senior Authorised Person Nuclear Radiological at Sizewell 'A' Nuclear power station. It is my day to day job to apply the Radiological safety rules at that location and comply with the Radiological Substances Act.

It is my opinion after working there for 25 years that you dont want to expose yourself to any risk of ingestion of this material, I would advise no one to remove the glass from the Mk2 speedo. If you have one with a damaged face, place in a sealed plastic bag and seek advice on its disposal. I believe some carrier switchs have painted ends which also require disposal.

Not trying to be big headed or tell you what to do mate but I work with radiation every day. Will tell you an interesting story about a guy who decided to bead blast a Lancaster dial at work when I next see you.

There is no way anyone from our site would of given you that advise, then offered to come and decontaminate as paid private work.

Just my opinion, its my area of work, same as the law is yours Richie, If you gave me some advice or your area of expertise, then I would take it.

I dont believe the Mk1 gauges contain any Radium.

Kevin.

The bit about the thread running from July, I sent you a pm on the 25/07/2012 telling you to leave well alone, remember??.

[RichardT10829]

yes as per my reply way up the thread.. telling me close it or get bone cancer (along those lines)

Hi Richard, Dont touch the black white mk2 gauges unless you want bone cancer.kev.


That comment is what started me off looking into the issue with the gauges.. and associated dangers hence me getting in touch with the chap above. I dont think you are big headed at all, but you have to see things from my point of view, as you had said the comment regarding bone cancer I wanted to seek information to substantiate or negate your comment. Imagine how I felt after reading it ? questions like "have i just killed my kids... hug and a kiss and bed time anything on me would be on them".... "What now"... "Am I contaminating everyone around me"... "if i am contaminated can i do anything to change my predicament", "how much is too much" "what symptoms will present and when"

hence why I ended up suiting up masking up then going taking swabs from my workshop, the 30 CPS returned (on top of background radiation) is this in your opinion accurate ? what did your meters read ?

so what would your advice be if contact had been made with the radium dust ? can you answer any of the above questions which had prior to this thread been whirring around my mind.

[kevin powles]

Richard, This is what we would do at work with this material, If you have removed the dial face, Set up a C2 contamination controlled area, (in your case barrier off your garage and area where you worked on the gauge).

You need a Radiological survey of your work area where the gauge face has been within this barriered area, whoever does this will put on a respirator and disposable coverall's and overshoes and rubber gloves, place the dial face in a plastic sealed bag using some long reach pliers. Seal the bag put it in a sealed all glass container and remove to a licenced facility for this waste, (without the glass you are exposed to Alpha and Beta radiation and enhanced gamma).

Any Measurment of counts per second found above background is contamination, they will need to do a proper radiological survey of your work area with an alpha and beta probe, then de-contaminate with approved methods, I dont recommend you do this. What have you actually done to the gauge face?, Have you used an abrasive to remove the paint?

I would suggest contacting Hartlepool Nuclear Power Station near you for guidance on who could carry out this for you. I dont advise you to carry out your own survey.

If you lived closer to me I could have sorted this for you with my employer, it may well start costing you money to bring in specialist to do this de-contamination work for you.

I can dispose of the gauge face for you at my work place. I can dispose of any used PPE, tag rags solvents used above if passed to me in a sealed plastic bag and again I can dispose of this for you.

You really need an independant body to do this work for you, this is the only advice I can give you.

Sorry Kev.

[RichardT10829]

Gauge face is in the gauge it was left alone after swabs were taken. It has not been sanded down or anything

[kevin powles]

Richard, Good leave the face there and put the speedo back together as found, this does not preclude carrying out all as advised in the previous post first. It appears you delivered some swab samples to the guy at the university who measured levels of contamination within your work area, so somehow the paint has left the face, perhaps through time degradation and has been released on opening the speedo?.

I would put your mind at rest and talk to your local GP about any health concerns you may have.

kevin.

check out 'speedo face repair' thread in the carrier section.

[Rick DeBruyn]

Check out this tread for a bit of information on radioactive gauges.

Radioactivity and our hobby

[Lynn Eades]

I have to thank you for the efforts you have made to to bring this risk to the public attention.
I realise you needed to ask all the questions to satisfy your own worries, but you didn't have to make it public. We appreciate the fact that you have given us the warning.
I have to wonder how many of us have already had exposure to some degree, as children, playing with old surplus aircraft instruments and the like.
Your concern for the rest of us, means that we can now make an informed choice on how we go forward.
I am sure that you will have changed someones life for the better.
Life is fragile

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Personally I would not bother to convert a gauge if this means exposure to this serious risk.

Here's a good example of what one museum did: just leave the gauge alone, and put a "warning, radioactive" sticker over it.