What's with the Premier of Newfoundland!!

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Because he's having a fight with the feds over offshore oil revenue,he gets p---ed off and orders all Canadian flags taken down from provincial buildings.What do you you think it is saying to the rest of us??This is our flag he toying with.Comments??

[Robert Dabkowski]

I think that the "Lying Liberals" should live up to their promises. Starting with "Cretins" pre-election promise to scrap the GST.

Twelve years (and how many deaths/injuries ?) to sign a new helicopter deal ? Cdn. naval vessels tied up/mothballed since there is no defense budget to pay for crews ? The pitifully small (and old) F-18 fighter fleet cut from 108 to 37 aircraft TO PROTECT THE ENTIRE COUNTRY when the current terrorist weapon of choise is airliners ! The F-5s retired and replaced with a few Hawk trainers ? Our tank force eliminated in favour of wheeled, lightly armoured "assault guns mounted on Strykers ? Spending billions on the US "missle defense" system that doesn't work ? Only 9 Aurura patrol planes to overfly the entire northern boundry of Canada ? Subs that kill their crews ? And lets not even start to talk about the almost Cdn.$2billion spent on the gun registry.

I'm glad that FINALLY, a Canadian has had the guts to stand up and call the Liberals to account. We've been lied to for so long that we seem not to even notice/care anymore. Even Sheila Fraser's report couldn't convince the Canadian population to vote them out of office. Trust the "Newfies" to see clearly and sensibly when the rest of us cannot ... and to point it out to us in a novel way.

I too have taken down my Canadian flag out of sheer embarresment. Not that the Provincial Liberals here in Ontario are any better about lying to the voters than the Feds are !!!

But I'm not bitter ... Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year to those
so inclined.

Robert in Toronto

[Jon Skagfeld]

Rob, et al...

I refuse to fly the Liberal rag which is supposed to be our national symbol.

You'll find only a Union Jack or Red Ensign on my property.

All Liberals, at any point of their arrogant spectrum, can go straight to Hell! (Except for Liberals in Oz).

Oh, oh...moderator might edit me...if so, another example of censorship in a democratic forum.

[chris vickery]

I applaud the Newf's for their show of disgust with our Federal government. It's about high time that the provinces stand up to the BS that continually comes from Ottawa and the liars and thieves that we apparently elected. I suppose some of the revenue from Newfoundland helped the PM with his Christmas holidays in Morrocco?
Maybe Ralph Klein in Alberta will join the revolution as well and really show the feds where the buck stops (or starts).
The newfs have always been there for us in the past and now that they've got something good going on, trust the gov't to screw it up. Maybe we should support the ''distinct society'' represented by Newfoundlanders and they can have their own referendum on separation. If it's good enough for Quebec and the Parti Quebecois, why not give the Rock back to the Newfs?

What else to get me going in my pre-Christmas, beer fueled banter?
What about gay marriage? Islamic fundamentalism and Shiria laws being invoked on Canadian soil? The GST, gun registration...

Santa, if you're listening, please bring us a new government

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I've always like Newfies, independent sumbitches as they've always been... now I have reason to like them even more. And damnstraight on the Union Flag and/or Red Ensign. I, for one, am PROUD of my heritage. So are all the people who've bought the Ensigns from me, many, many more than I ever figured!

IMHO, we need a popular revolution in this country to DE-centralize and undo the bloody mess that Trudeau an his pack of rabid Liberal self-serving rats did to this formerly fine place (and which has been perpetuated since)...

And PS: Mackenzie King can rot in hell, preferably confined in the same cell as John Diefenbaker! So there..

UP THE NEWFIES!!!!!

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

For my part,when the feds,and I don't want to get into politics,chose the flag as we know it now,I was upset as anyone,replacing the Ensign,the bastards(Excuse my english)BUT and this is the killer that brouight me around to finally accept the "Maple Leaf".Firstly,my family fought under the RED ENSIGN from the Boer War thru World War One,through WW2,plus Korea to the 1956 war in Egypt.It was only in 1972 when I wore the Maple Leaf flag on my jean jacket on my trip to Jolly old England and afterward Dieppe.Everyone in the UK said "Oh you're a Canadian" or in Dieppe"Vous etes un Canadien".Do you know what-it was like at this time that I and I repeat I,as a Canadian,HAD a distinctive identity,which,I feel our old Ensign,that I still love,would not have identified me from MY country>Wear it and be proud
Merry Christmas all you MLU'ers

[Gordon Yeo]

Now we have the Maple Leaf for the flag and Garry points out that it makes us recognizable internationaly. Maybe we should trot out an old tune we learned in the pipeband that went to Europe in 2003, The Maple Leaf Forever.I'm sure the Red Ensign fans would remember when that was popular.

[Barry Churcher]

I simply can't understand being too embarassed to fly MY country's flag. The next thing will be burning it. This is my country too and my flag so please show it the respect it is due. I also did not agree with the Trudeau gang about replacing the flag but it happened. Get over it, or run for election! This is the flag that CANADA is now recignized by all over the world. It means something to a lot of people in a lot of different countries and is respected by those people, why can't we respect it? In a previous thread some uninformed person said " eer, wrong flag". Well it isn't the wrong flag dammit. It is not the flag our veterans fought under but it is the flag we now live under. The youth in that previous thread about Normandy 2004 waved this flag with incredible enthusiasm and I for one was proud to witness such a sight. They represented CANADA and were very proud of that flag and made all the people from other attending countries well aware of where they were from. It is the only flag that the youth of our country know. Brian Gough has given out flags to the veterans the last three times we have been in Europe. They all waved them enthusiastically from the vehicles they were riding in and not one of them said "no thanks, wrong flag". I guess Gary Shipton and I are the only people on this forum to feel this way.
I have shirts made up for every time I am lucky enough to get to Europe for parades. These shirts have a CANADIAN MAPLE LEAF FLAG embroidered on them because as Gary so aptly put it, "this is my identity". I will now go out in the snow and see if I can get my CANADIAN flag to fly a touch higher and yes my Ensign that I bought from Geoff will still be right below it.
Barry C ( in the flag waving minority )

[Robert Dabkowski]

Barry, I can understand you being proud of being Canadian and wanting to fly the flag to show that but let me explain why I choose not to fly the red maple leaf.

We currently live in a democracy where Ann McLellan (remember the minister who has been lying to Parliament for three years about the cost of the gun registry ?) or any other Liberal minister can sign a "Security Certificate" and have you immediately arrested. No evidence, no investigaion, no charges, no phone call, no appearance before a judge, no right to council.

YOU, a citizen of Canada.

You can be held forever without charge or trial. Or deported. It does take a judge to sentence you to death and you CAN have a lawyer at that trial but Ann need NOT reveal the details of the charge to you nor your lawyer, nor any of the evidense, none of the witnesses if such exist can be cross-examined by you nor your lawyer. Nervous yet ... still proud to be Canadian ?

Can't happen here you say ? Just ask Mahar Arar (sp?). That is exactly what happened to him. Arrested on one of Ann's Certificates, deported to the US who then sent him to Syria (without charge) for a YEAR OF TORTURE before he was relaesed from prison (wearing only a shirt and a pair of pants) to make his own way back to Canada. Never charged with anything by any country. And not defended by his own country.

Barry, still proud to be Canadian ?

We'll be in real trouble if Ann decides to start locking up members of the Conservative Party via "Security Certificates". We'll not even hear about it for weeks or months. Can't happen here you say again ? Try reading up on the history of the October Crisis in 1970s Quebec when the Liberals under Trudeau had over 6,000 citizens arrested without warrant, mostly at gun point, held without charge, without trial, without lawyers, without communicatuion with their families. The dozen or so FLQ terrorists were allowed to fly to Cuba while the innocents sat in detention.

If you are a student of history then you know that our previous generations fought and died to OPPOSE just such tyrany. Until now we have followed the rule of law and the principle of "habeus corpus". By giving these concepts away we become just like those that we seek to defend ourselves against.

Our government (the Liberals) have given away our democratic freedoms, even though we were not attacked on 911, so that the Americans won't have to worry about terrorists attacking them thru Canada. I won't fly the red maple leaf until I can be proud of my government's and my country's behaviour again.

The Liberals seem to be jumping into bed with the Yanks on missle defense, fingerprinting at the border, exporting water south and trading security information. Maybe I should start to fly the STARS&STRIPES now to beat the rush ?

Care to join me Barry ?

Robert in Toronto (unless the Liberals are monitoring this website)

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

When Diefenbaker died,his coffin was draped,at his request,with the Red Ensign,as a sign that he was expressing to the end.I respect that.Robert,your post,I respect that too.In a free country,we do still have our liberties.Yes,politicians screw things up.But we still have our rights.We,or should I say ,the Air Force Assn,still fly the blue flag with the Royal ensign in one corner,with the Air Force roundel in the bottom of that.But you know what,I am prouder than anyone else in other countries to be what I am,Hell my blood's even red.A buddy's son came home from Croatia and I asked him what it was like.The first words out of his mouth were"Boy am I glad to be a Canadian.I guess some of us should experience other parts of the world,Maybe our minds may be changed.Look at our troops when they go overseas,They don't want to wear camo flags.They want the maple leaf flag on their uniforms to be visible for all to see.As my daughter says,"Go figure"

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
Rob, et al...

I refuse to fly the Liberal rag which is supposed to be our national symbol.

You'll find only a Union Jack or Red Ensign on my property.

All Liberals, at any point of their arrogant spectrum, can go straight to Hell! (Except for Liberals in Oz).

Thanks for the clarification, Jon... for those who are wondering, the Liberal party here are the conservatives, which seems to be the direct opposite of those in Canada which can be confusing.

We too have the occasional flag debate, but most of us are happy with our flag, even though we don't fly it nearly as much as you fly yours.

[Jon Skagfeld]

For Barry and Rob...and anyone else lurking about.

With reference to "rights", are you aware that we, in Canada, have no property rights?

What, you say?...guess what ...the Trudeau Constitution and his Charter of Rights have NOT enshrined property rights to any Canadian citizen.

Are you shocked yet?

This means that the "state" can, with impunity and no compensation resulting therefrom, confiscate all and any of your possessions! Read my lips...property rights are NOT enshrined in the Charter of Canadian Rights.

This became evident during the promulgation of the $2,000,000,000.00 Liberal gun registry when it became clear that the Orders in Council were enacted by subverting Parliamentary debate. This was particularly relevant to Canadian gun owners, but was not noticed by citizens at large until organizations, such as OHA, CILA, etc, etc, published fact sheets and made the general public aware of the shortcomings of the property rights issue wherein legal gun owners could be forced to turn in their registered weapons, without compensation. This, therefore, meant that other citizens, with other properties, would be faced with the same situation.

The above example is but one where I eschew the principles of Liberalism. God knows, we've had enough scandals under the Liberal flag which purports to be the flag of citizen's choice.

I say again, no Liberal rag shall sully my property. I had to obey the dictates of NDHQ for 37 years, now I am "free" to say what I damn well wish.

Those who chose to fly the "Canadian " flag overseas, so that they won't be mistaken for Americans, are flying a flag of convenience.

[John McGillivray]

The Maple leaf has been our flag for about 40 years now. For the majority of Canadians it is the only Canadian flag that they have ever known. Most Canadians are not of British stock, and to them the Union Jack is just another foreign flag. The red ensign was originally the flag of the British Merchant Marine, but with a Canadian coat of arms added to it. Ontario still uses a version of the red ensign as its provincial flag.

As for Newfoundland, it is just politics as usual. The provincial and federal governments fighting over money, and how they should divide up the profits from the offshore oil.

[chris vickery]

'' most Canadians are not of British stock, and to them the British flag is just another foreign flag''.
Having been born and bred with Anglo-Saxon heritage, I am extremely proud of my English roots.
My grandfather was a Bernardo child, having been orphaned at the young age of 10 years, put on a boat and sent to labour here on a farm as a virtual prisoner in the post- Victorian era. This is quite unlike most of todays arrivals, who seek a better life here, with all of our social programs, free handouts, political correctness and the like, all at the expense of true born and bred Canadians from a mostly European stock. Maybe the problem with this country is the fact that our majority of newcomers aren't of the Queens stock...
Not in a PC frame of mind and will never be

[John McGillivray]

Hello Chris,

It is good that you are proud of your English roots. However you must remember that most Canadians do not share your Anglo-Saxon heritage. In fact the British were never a majority in Canada. Before the American Revolution, Canada was almost entirely French. If Canada had been British in 1775 it probably would have sided with the 13 colonies, and there would never have been an independent Canada. It was mostly French militia with the aid of the small British garrison who defeated the Americans at the gates of Quebec City in December 1775. It is ironic that during the American Revolution, British North America remained British, because it was French.

For myself, my ancestors have been in Canada for 200+ years, and I am proud of my Canadian heritage.

John

[Jon Skagfeld]

John McGillivray:

I'll take a pause to try and rationally re-read your two posts, and try to not blow a fuse and raise my blood pressure.

Have a good night's sleep as you and the Bloc get in bed together.

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Couldn't say it any better.By the way,as I post this message,I'm staring aat both the Red Ensign,and my beautiful Red Maple Leaf flag that,none of the bleeding hearts out there can take away from me.I'll go to bed contented.

[Al Nickolson]

The People Canada

British Isles origin 28%, French origin 23%, other European 15%, Amerindian 2%, other, mostly Asian, African, Arab 6%, mixed background 26%

Languages
English 59.3% (official), French 23.2% (official), other 17.5%

It looks like English / British is still the majority in Canada.

Al

[John McGillivray]

Good day Al,

The British Isles is not just the English, but includes Scotland, Ireland and Wales. The last time I looked The Republic of Ireland was an independent country with its own tri-colour flag, and is not part of the United Kingdom. Go out on St. Patrick’s Day and you will see many people flying the Irish Tri-Colour and not many Union Jacks.

As for the Canadians of Scottish descent, when they wish to display their heritage by flying a flag, many would fly the Cross of St Andrew or the Scottish Lion and not the Union Jack. Many Scots would get upset if you were to call them “English”.

Even if you were to lump all the people who trace their heritage back to the British Isles as one ethnic group, you still only come up with a total of 28%. That means that 72% of Canadians have no connection to the British Isles. Lets face it, Canada is a country of minorities, unless you are willing to consider “Canadian” to be a nationally.

Language spoken is an entirely different issue from that of ethnic origin. English is the most widely spoken language on earth. Most people in the US also speak English, but they do not consider themselves to be British. English is one of the two official Languages in the Philippines, but the only Union Jack that you will find is that flying in front of the British Embassy.

John

[JD Baillie]

Good grief you lot! Didn't we get this flag thing out of our systems at Rememberance day?

Since I feel really STRONGLY about the Maple Leaf Flag.. this string has provoked some thoughts.

PULLLL-EASE don't confuse the Canadian Maple Leaf flag with corrupt politicians, bad political agendas and for goodness sakes DON'T wave around the ensign as the only flag that has been fought under in Canada. From the first deployment after the adoption of the Maple Leaf to the last soldier home from Afganistan, the Maple Leaf have been the colors. Our soldiers wore the flag proudly on our shoulders, stood under it in OPs, and buiried dead children under it in Yugoslavia. Perhaps a small item but perhaps not. It is OURS and no one elses.

If you don't like Canadian politics, join a party, run as an independant or start a movement from the ground up. Certainly Preston Manning felt that way and did something about it. You may not agree with what he did, but he and others really did something different for the first time. I sense many members on this forum are formally retired. Few who are in their mid life carreers have the time to involve themselves in federal politics. Those who are retired and feel strongly may have more time than mid life working people to get involved and try to effect change.

I would like to suggest that the lack of a body of government that can effect checks and ballances over the elected and ruling party is a most serioius problem. Our 'Senate' should perform this function but cannot, and will not, as long as it is appointed by the PMO. This needs to change. If there was proper oversight of the ruling party, Canadians might see a little less of the nonsense that Robert so rightly rails against.

Property rights have, as Jon states, never been a right in this country and now to change the constitution to include property rights is nearly impossible as ALL provinces have to agree. Ha!


Lastly, a note to Vegemite: Of course political parties are backwards down there! You're bloody standing upside down! Now, execute a half barrel role and take another look!

JD
Vic BC
a Canadian 1st.