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  #1  
Old 30-04-18, 19:42
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jdmcm jdmcm is offline
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Default Ontario Museum buys fake German vehicles

I think it was pretty common knowledge that a lot of the vehicles at Auburn were basically fabricated replicas, I think they have been sued previously for a bunch of things, and certainly Kruse Auctions has, hopefully they get their money back

http://www.journalgazette.net/news/l...wwii-artifacts

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  #2  
Old 30-04-18, 22:54
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Well John, what can we say but "buyer beware"? The inaccuracies on many of these vehicles are well known since they went on display decades ago at the Victory Museum at Arlon, Belgium. A few evenings searching on the internet and consulting with specialists could have prevented a "bad buy".

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmcm View Post
http://www.journalgazette.net/news/l...wwii-artifacts
"Other authenticity issues include [...] a “Made in Germany” inscription – written in English – on one of the vehicle's headlights.

“Given that Germany and Britain were enemies in World War II, the Germans neither exported their products to Britain nor issued them to troops who primarily spoke English,” the authenticity report states. “The English headlight inscription therefore readily demonstrates the falsity of the light itself and the museum's vehicle as a whole.
Ahem... the "Made in Germany" trademark has been in use for more than 125 years!
Ref. http://www.dw.com/en/125-years-of-ma...any/a-16188583

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  #3  
Old 02-05-18, 20:24
45jim 45jim is offline
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Default "So-called Specialists"

The real tragedy here is that the money wasted on these fakes will never be fully recovered, lawyers will see to that.

The "specialists" enlisted to determine the authenticity and value of these vehicles on behalf of the buyer should be hung by their short and curly's as the whole military vehicle collecting world knew they were fakes long before they hit North American shores. German military vehicles are among the most researched and documented of any WW2 nation. No excuse.

I feel for the actual "buyer" who put very good money out on poor advice and now is left fighting a court battle in the US. I am sure he feels abused as his money was used in such a cavalier way by people who would never spend their own money in such a flippant manner.

Next time he should enlist proper "subject matter experts" to assist him. They are out there.
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Old 02-05-18, 21:08
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Jon Bradshaw Jon Bradshaw is offline
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Default Fake or made of readily available/ recycled parts?

I am not an expert but I like to play devils advocate.....

Some of the things listed as problems could be honest field available fixes.
Road wheels/ chassis on the Maultier could have been harvested from captured universal carriers. Captured from BEF in France, like many French vehicles, they were likely pressed into service as usable equipment/ chassis for modification. Some wheels could have ended up on a Maultier with American production markings. The pic of a Ford Maultier unloading a ME323 shows clearly a Vickers 1930's style suspension and road wheels. Since the Panzer 1 was based on a Vickers 1930's tank the road wheels could have been copied and compatible. (not sure as I don't have one to compare)
I also believe that at least a few Ford plants built prior to 1939, were operating in Europe during the war under German control. One huge one just outside Cologne made trucks and cars since 1931. The end result could have meant that English markings were on molds and metal stamps from before the war. There are pics of German Maultier cargo trucks (not rocket) made from Ford trucks operating on the eastern front.
Firestone had a plant in England through the 1930's but other than a partnership with Ford I can find no evidence of a plant in Europe proper.
Goodyear operated in partnership with Zepplin until 1940 and dissolved the partnership due to the war. Not sure what they made besides airships.

This is an interesting problem for the museum since as was already mentioned it is buyer beware. I wonder if the case could be further investigated along the thoughts I have put forward. The maultier could in fact be mostly original parts, even if poorly re-assembled and missing proper mounting hardware for the weapons?

Again I am not saying these ones are not fakes, just that a few more parts could be legitimate. They could have been assembled from a few different vehicles. Mounting hardware may have been impossible to find so was simply welded into place to make a static display.

The people who know more about this will no doubt chime in here.

As 45Jim says- The "specialists" enlisted to determine the authenticity and value of these vehicles on behalf of the buyer should be hung by their short and curly's as the whole military vehicle collecting world knew they were fakes long before they hit North American shores.

The fault in this lays with the ones they paid to check out the vehicles, they get paid to know the difference.
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  #5  
Old 02-05-18, 22:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Bradshaw View Post
I am not an expert but I like to play devils advocate.....

Some of the things listed as problems could be honest field available fixes.
Road wheels/ chassis on the Maultier could have been harvested from captured universal carriers. Captured from BEF in France, like many French vehicles, they were likely pressed into service as usable equipment/ chassis for modification. Some wheels could have ended up on a Maultier with American production markings. The pic of a Ford Maultier unloading a ME323 shows clearly a Vickers 1930's style suspension and road wheels. Since the Panzer 1 was based on a Vickers 1930's tank the road wheels could have been copied and compatible. (not sure as I don't have one to compare)
Jon,

It is a common misunderstanding that the German Maultier used British Light Tank/ Universal Carrier components. Indeed they were patterned on British components, but they were different - see e.g. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ltier#post5666

HTH,
Hanno
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  #6  
Old 03-05-18, 05:21
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I sure hope the Jagdpanzer 38 Sdkfz 138/2...or incorrectly the "Hetzer" that is being restored in Europe for the same museum has been verified to be an actual WW2 German vehicle and not the more common post war G13. There are very few genuine wartime Jagdpanzer 38's around and many are post war versions "back dated" and restored as WW2 German units. Price can be an indicator as actual German Jagdpanzer 38's are usually valued about 4 times the price of a G13, last restored example with actual WW2 provenance was over 400k Euro. My advice would be to spend a few extra bucks and consult Hillary Doyle, Bruce Crompton or Kevin Wheatcroft. Well worth the money to save yourself getting taken by a well crafted fake.
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  #7  
Old 03-05-18, 05:58
rob love rob love is offline
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Quote:
Other authenticity issues include rivet-style metal heads welded onto the body where rivets should have been used.....
It is one thing to have to replace a plate of steel that was badly mangled on a range wreck, or possibly battle damaged vehicle, but quite another to be welding rivet heads to replicate riveting. Not a good sign.
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  #8  
Old 03-05-18, 15:55
James P James P is offline
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And this purchase should be held up as a cautionary tale as to doing ones due diligence and research before committing to the purchase, at the least book a flight down to get eyes on the vehicles and actually know what is before you on offer.
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  #9  
Old 03-05-18, 23:02
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Oh boy.....

I thought everybody knew most of the armoured Maultier was fabricated....the top of the hull with all the wrong angles and measurements and the complete tracks and bogies from a T16.

Same with the Marder....I think it's a Swedish chassis which is slightly longer and has two return rollers in stead of one. Superstructure and PAK could be original though.

I have to agree with Hanno though on the "made in germany" lettering. Dunlop had a factory in Germany, that did produce tyres for half tracks and aircraft ....and I believe it said "Dunlup, made in Germany" on the sides.
But Firestone and Good year....mosty likely T16 carrier parts.


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Last edited by Alex van de Wetering; 03-05-18 at 23:12.
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  #10  
Old 04-05-18, 09:01
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Douglas Greville Douglas Greville is offline
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When I read through the list of complaints what sticks out to me is that most of the things listed would be obvious to most people. Granted you need to know your specifics for things like armour angles. But the anorak detail of whether or not a real Marder has 2 return rollers or one is pretty obvious if you pull up any WW2 photo of a Marder.

A quick google search would reveal sites such as "Surviving Panzers" etc.

We all know that WW2 was now 73 years ago and there weren't many German vehicles survived it. Heck, just look at the Littlefield Panther (which the museum in question would know about) - Jacques had to get a complete new fabrication for the turret. Would they get sniffy that that vehicle is not authentic enough?

There seems to be a lot more to this story than in that article.

To me it has all the makings of a lawyer fest.

If you buy at auction you need to read the fine print and if that fine print includes an escape clause that essentially says the seller guarantees nothing, then buyer beware applies. I cannot count the number of times I have seen
sale lots misdescribed at auction, actually in my experience it is the norm not the exception.

But as to the difference between and G13 and a real Hetzer, 10 minutes spent on the internet would soon educate even the most wet behind the ears armour enthusiast. Then he too can own a vehicle that has to be driven with a view of the world no better than looking out through a letter box slot.
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  #11  
Old 04-05-18, 14:46
Jesse Browning Jesse Browning is offline
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All at once I had several very interested parties in the Sexton. Granted, its not a $300k sale. Two European buyers were pressing me to give them my bank wiring info, sight unseen. The US Buyer will come to see it next week. Maybe because of my past experiences, I found it UNTHINKABLE that a purchase of that size would be made without inspecting the vehicle. Thatís the reason I gave the local buyer first chance. I donít much care if the vehicle stays in the US. My wife wants me to get a grocery service to deliver for me since I can no longer shop, but I wont even buy groceries without seeing them first.
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  #12  
Old 04-05-18, 22:38
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Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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Just maybe Jessie, your reputation precedes you, because of which, people are happy to buy sight un-seen.
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  #13  
Old 05-05-18, 04:03
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Due diligence took me 10 minutes and most of that was waiting for the PDFs to download:

<http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Modified_Foreign_Vehicles.pdf>

Marder III vismod - bottom most listing.

<http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_sWS_Maultier.pdf>

4th from the bottom.

I will point out that I do not know when those documents were created
or the details updated.
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  #14  
Old 05-05-18, 15:07
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is offline
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This must be embarrassing for the museum, but it raises interesting questions.

Almost no historic MV's are completely original and, if so, are probably unusable with considerable 'patina'. The rest contain some degree of restoration ranging from replacement, but original, parts to complete fabrications based on the barest of original bones. Fabrication is sometimes the only way to go and it's the research, skill and detail of the fabricator that makes all the difference.

The other direction is willful adapting away from original for practical reasons: original parts are unavailable, original parts are unreliable or it's just the restorer's choice to do it up to the level they want.

It is up to the purchaser to decide what level of authenticity they want to invest in. Is a 12V conversion acceptable? Mild steel replacement armour? A modern diesel instead of the old flathead? Cosmetic rather than original? And my bugaboo, gloss paint instead of matt? There's all of these out there, and it's all good unless something is misrepresented. Not sure how much responsibility there is on the part of the buyer when that happens. It seems dropping big money should come with a fair bit of caution and research.
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  #15  
Old 06-05-18, 05:04
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Bruce, regarding the paint. For anyone that wants to have a lasting restoration then gloss paint is necessary to form an impermeable barrier. But it just requires a coat of flat or matt over that to get the correct look.

The reason WW2 vehicles were so prone to rust is that the flat paint was porous as was the red zinc undercoat. So moisture wicked through the paint layers. This explains why you can pick up a part that appears ok but when the paint is cleaned back there is surface rust on the metal.

The other issue with matt, especially on vehicles (usually armour) where diesel and oil are spilled or where oil is necessary to keep hatch hinges etc working is that the oil soaks into the paint. They get grubby really quickly
and it is a losing battle to try and get the oil out of the paint. Hence why a lot of people prefer to do their restoration with either semi-gloss or gloss paint in order to be able to keep the vehicle looking nice.

Regards
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Old 06-05-18, 14:26
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Greville View Post
Bruce, regarding the paint. For anyone that wants to have a lasting restoration then gloss paint is necessary to form an impermeable barrier. But it just requires a coat of flat or matt over that to get the correct look.

The reason WW2 vehicles were so prone to rust is that the flat paint was porous as was the red zinc undercoat. So moisture wicked through the paint layers. This explains why you can pick up a part that appears ok but when the paint is cleaned back there is surface rust on the metal.

The other issue with matt, especially on vehicles (usually armour) where diesel and oil are spilled or where oil is necessary to keep hatch hinges etc working is that the oil soaks into the paint. They get grubby really quickly
and it is a losing battle to try and get the oil out of the paint. Hence why a lot of people prefer to do their restoration with either semi-gloss or gloss paint in order to be able to keep the vehicle looking nice.

Regards
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  #17  
Old 15-05-18, 01:08
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This is sadly a very common phenomenon. I see a ton of T-34s getting sold as "the real deal" that are actually post-war Polish or Czechoslovakian production. It's not even very difficult to tell the difference, but unscrupulous sellers will try to press it into the hands of an unsuspecting buyer anyway.
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  #18  
Old 15-05-18, 02:16
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Fakes

Weather it is fake badges or fake vehicles, there always seems to be someone who can fall prey to not understanding what they are purchasing.
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  #19  
Old 15-05-18, 08:08
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As has been said it is the misrepresentation thatís the real problem.
I suggested a while back that we should have a scale for originality:
a) Original complete vehicle where 90% of the parts on the vehicle where on it during its wartime service.
b) Based on an original wreck with ID, with many period parts and new fabrications.
c) Not based on an original vehicle but built from period parts.
d) Out and out copy based on parts not from the original production line.

Most of the wartime German armour around today in private hands is a b with more c grades appearing now that digging up parts in Eastern Europe is so popular. The 432 based re-enactment vehicles are d. Apparently there is someone in Europe building 100% new kettengrads which end up being passed off as original to people with money who only have a passing interest in the hobby.
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  #20  
Old 15-05-18, 12:15
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So Alistair, is that 90% by number of parts, or by weight of parts? or by uniqueness?
Every vehicle is different and it really is down to the buyer to do his homework before he parts with his money.
"Based" is very broad. Is that like a new Spitfire built around an original turnbuckle?
To have a scale would then need adjuticators, like judges for conformity at dog shows. There would be no clarity.
Sorry Alistair I think your plan is flawed.
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  #21  
Old 18-05-18, 12:57
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Ajmac

As a Kettenkrad owner I am a bit dubious about the claim of new KKs.

Sure, there is a Czech bloke (Lehar) who supplies new built bodies, for what a bare body costs, you could buy a fully restored jeep. Unless you have one of the French vineyard tractors as a parts donor, you would be hard pressed to put together a convincing vehicle given that most of the mechanicals are not available as reproductions. Any KK restoration requires purchasing a lot of genuine parts. They are not jeeps, you cannot build one from all reproduction parts.

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Old 18-05-18, 13:01
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As to fakes, anyone who gets a ken to buy a Beemer combination has a 99% chance they are actually buying an MZ, MTZ, Ural etc that has been reworked.

The truly uniformed end up with Chang-Jiangs.

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  #23  
Old 18-05-18, 13:20
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Lynn

As I have said on other forums, if a replica is properly done and is identified as such then well and good.
I for one do not get sniffy over those lovely Mosquitos made in the last few years in NZ. The only really non-genuine aspect is who made them and when.
To me they are still lovely Mossies.
The same applies to most of the Spits now flying, most of them are either so majority new parts as to be in effect new airframes.
I doubt the owners really care and I certainly wouldn't if offered a ride!
The difference being everyone is aware of their status.

As a P-40 owner in the US once said to a rivet counter who was being obnoxious "you can paint your P-40 whatever colo(u)r you like". As it subsequently turned out, the owner had his details correct and the rivet counter was full of himself and was wanting to see that P-40 in markings he decreed were correct.
It is a matter of perspective.
The point being, it all seems to hinge around how rare a specific vehicle/plane is and what it takes to restore it. The Ontario museum sought to buy an ultra rare Maultier, they should have done their homework first, it wasn't very hard to do so.

From what I can see, they got auction fever and jumped in with both feet and now want to cry foul.

Most who buy rare vehicles obtain the services of an expert so that they have full awareness of what they are purchasing.
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  #24  
Old 21-05-18, 03:28
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Default Ont R Museum

I was on an inspection visit of the OntR Museum this weekend, and saw the two vehicles up for discussion. The volunteers were very open. The museum does not own them. They did not buy them. Someone else bought them, uninspected. The new owner knows he didn't get what he paid for. The new owner is likely very pissed off, and I suppose has his lawyers involved.

The half-track was described to me as wartime (or not) frame and front axle, with realistic running gear. It doesn't have a motor or much inside. We joked that the Nebelwerfer doesn't Nebel and won't Werf. The Marder was described as the lower half of a post war Swedish production 38T, with what one fellow called "Hollywood" above the track line. The back end of the gun did look genuine, but incomplete.

HOWEVER, just beside it in the bay is a VISMOD Leopard C2. It came to the museum as a driver trainer with a very non-combat family-friendly mini van-like seats six trainer turret, complete with a big lead counterweight. I'm not a Leo' rivet counter, but until the volunteer pointed out its fabricated parts, it looks pretty good, even the thermal shield and clips on the main tube.

So folks, is the OntR museum perpetrating a hoax on the visitors? Should every guest demand their 1/80th of the admission back as compensation because 79 of 80 vehicles were real? Nope. Some things can't be duplicated.

As already mentioned, there is enough interest in this hobby that Spitfires, Mustangs and Mosquitos are now worth scratchbuilding. Likewise there is a mechanical company in France putting modern cruiser bus engines and transmissions in clapped-out range wreck Shermans. Apparently they are a lot easier to operate and still look like a 75mm or 76.2mm Sherman.
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74-????? M151A2 plated and on the road
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Old 21-05-18, 14:03
James P James P is offline
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Lessons learned, drill down on the research (of seller and vehicle(s)) and exercise due diligence when trying to make a purchase via a on line auction, why the buyer did not fly/drive down and actually see the vehicles is perplexing. Interesting bit of expensive drama and I hope the buyer and OntR Museum see some good come out of this mess.

https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/...Foundation_Inc

Terry, there was no "post war" Swedish 38t production as they stop building them in March 1944.
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  #26  
Old 24-05-18, 03:43
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If the museum doesn't own the vehicles why are they the plaintiff in the court case?
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Old 24-05-18, 04:25
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmcm View Post
If the museum doesn't own the vehicles why are they the plaintiff in the court case?
Joint damages? Not my goat. Not my rodeo. Only a spectator; and the box office sold out of programs.
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74-????? M151A2 plated and on the road
70-08876 M38A1 ready for the road
53-71233 M100CDN trailer manufactured by MCI ready for the road

Wow! All three green beasties run!
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  #28  
Old 08-02-19, 18:55
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This lawsuit looks like the Ever Ready bunny that just keeps going and going and..................

https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/...Foundation_Inc
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  #29  
Old 17-04-19, 19:24
James P James P is offline
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Default Lessons learned

The hard (and expensive) way.

https://www.apnews.com/82da84d96ca54e65839dcf65e9caad4d
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  #30  
Old 17-04-19, 21:19
45jim 45jim is offline
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Default Ouch...$250K USD!

That's a big hit. So, now what to do? Is it worth the money and effort to turn these into running pieces for the Ontario Reg't Museum to use in their annual displays?
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