MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > GENERAL WW2 TOPICS > WW2 Military History & Equipment

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 24-07-03, 20:36
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default "SMOKEY" SMITH

Hi... does anyone know if there is a site online with Smokey's family tree/geneology??? Ernest Alvia Smith. I'm researching my SMITH side relatives and want to find out if there is a link.

I've kept coming across his name when researching my Uncle because he's mentioned all over the place as being the last living Victoria Cross recipient. I happen to know the partner of Smokey's daughter and considered just calling but??? Should I? Should that be invasive? Hmmm.

Also...VICTORA CROSS recipients....did I understand correctly there there were only EVER just over 1500 VC recipients EVER since WW1???

Karmen
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 24-07-03, 21:14
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
former OC MLU, AKA 'Jif' - sadly no longer with us
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,400
Default

Karmen, there's only EVER been 1354 VCs awarded, since inception.

See here for details, but be prepared to spend a LONG time...

http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/default.asp
__________________
SUNRAY SENDS AND ENDS
:remember :support
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 24-07-03, 22:10
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
Senior Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 3,027
Post Re: Victoria Cross

Hi Little Miss;

The VC dates back to 1854 (Crimean War period) or 'Your Three Brothers' time.

Cheers
__________________
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 24-07-03, 22:56
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Why thank y'all good buddys...gonna hie on down to that ole link and get me more educamated and while um at er... may drop on inta see the bruthers fer old lang syne (I ken feel mah temperture arizin')...oiy (dammmmmmmmmmmmmmm just dumped my coffee!!!!!!!)

Seriously tho...thanks to both ofyouGeoff and Mark
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24-07-03, 23:06
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Karmen, there's only EVER been 1354 VCs awarded, since inception.

See here for details, but be prepared to spend a LONG time...

http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/default.asp
Geoff...I'll have to check out this link later when I have time... ittakes a VERY long time to load the page Karmen
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 24-07-03, 23:10
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Re: Victoria Cross

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Hi Little Miss;

The VC dates back to 1854 (Crimean War period) or 'Your Three Brothers' time.

Cheers
VC...from 1854...1354 recipients up to the present? Very very special honour award then!!!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 24-07-03, 23:47
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
Senior Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 3,027
Default Re: Re: Re: Victoria Cross

Little Miss;

At one time, it was the highest award for bravery, in the face of the enemy, for members of the Armed Forces in the British Empire, including all Dominions, Colonies, etc........now, just to members of the British Armed Forces proper.

Cheers
__________________
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 25-07-03, 00:43
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Victoria Cross

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Little Miss;

At one time, it was the highest award for bravery, in the face of the enemy, for members of the Armed Forces in the British Empire, including all Dominions, Colonies, etc........now, just to members of the British Armed Forces proper.

Cheers

Amazing! So...what is the "highest" award available these days?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 25-07-03, 01:00
Jon Skagfeld's Avatar
Jon Skagfeld Jon Skagfeld is offline
M38A1 CDN3
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Owen Sound ON
Posts: 2,190
Default Re, Re, Re, Re, VC

Mark: check fire on your comment about VC only to Brit Forces.

Going from memory, there was great hue and cry about VC being removed from Canadian Honours List when Star of Courage etc were introduced.

Without checking a whole lot of reference material, I believe that VC has been re-instituted as the highest Canadian (Commonwealth) award.
__________________
PRONTO SENDS
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 25-07-03, 01:18
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
former OC MLU, AKA 'Jif' - sadly no longer with us
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,400
Default Wishful thinking - see next post

Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
Mark: check fire on your comment about VC only to Brit Forces.

Going from memory, there was great hue and cry about VC being removed from Canadian Honours List when Star of Courage etc were introduced.

Without checking a whole lot of reference material, I believe that VC has been re-instituted as the highest Canadian (Commonwealth) award.

Originally, when that whole series of "Canadian" awards was instituted, we kept the VC, but a distinctly Canadian version, with the original inscription "For Valour" replaced by "Pro Valore" (presumably not to offend the French). None was ever awarded.

Sometime in the last year or so, we seem to have reverted... someone, somewhere, obviously has enough clout to suggest that until we become another Republique Francaise, we remain a Commonweath country, and as such in the service of Her Majesty.

The VA site notes this change by the absence of the revisionist photo and text they once carried on the subject:

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub...enu/group01/vc

[snide editorial comment] You'll damned well never see one of THESE awarded, posthumously or otherwise, as long as this crew of ruffians is in power. Her Majesty's government might request the privilege of bestowing that award, but our people will inevitably turn it down. It sickens me. [/snide editorial comment]
__________________
SUNRAY SENDS AND ENDS
:remember :support
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 25-07-03, 01:28
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
former OC MLU, AKA 'Jif' - sadly no longer with us
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,400
Default Re Jon et al

Sorry, I lied.

We HAVE removed the "real" VC from our stable. Read it and weep...

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.../group02/canvc

Goddam people. ****!!!!


The following constitutes our CURRENT medals and decorations system; note all but the first three can be awarded any just about anyone for stuff like rescuing Liberals - er, I mean cats - out of trees:

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub...inmenu/group02
__________________
SUNRAY SENDS AND ENDS
:remember :support
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 25-07-03, 03:18
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
Senior Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 3,027
Default Re: VC

Thanks Guys;

Like I said on another thread, I have my moments... had a 'brain-fart' this time, I thought they had taken it out again...anyways:

Victoria Cross (VC)

ELIGIBILITY Military Valour Decorations are national honours awarded to recognize acts of valour, self-sacrifice or devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy. A person is eligible to be awarded a Military Valour Decoration if that person, on or after January 1, 1993 is: a member of the Canadian Forces; or a member of an allied armed force that is serving with or in conjunction with the Canadian Forces

CRITERIA The Victoria Cross shall be awarded for the most conspicuous bravery, a daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty, in the presence of the enemy.

DESCRIPTION A bronze straight-armed cross pattee, 38 mm across, with raised edges: on the obverse, a lion guardant standing upon the Royal Crown, and below the Crown, a scroll bearing the inscription “PRO VALORE”; and on the reverse, the date of the act for which the decoration is bestowed is engraved in a raised circle.

MOUNTING The Cross is suspended by means of a plain link from a V below a straight bar ornamented with laurel leaves, on the back of which is engraved the rank, name and unit of the recipient.

BAR Each subsequent award of the Cross shall be indicated by a plain bronze bar, ornamented with laurel leaves, which shall be attached to the centre of the ribbon from which the Cross is suspended, and where two or more bars are attached those bars shall be equally spaced on the ribbon.

WEARING OF THE DECORATION The Cross shall be worn first in sequence, as prescribed in the Canadian Orders, Decorations and Medals Directive, and in the following manner: on the left breast, suspended from a crimson ribbon that is 38 mm in width; and where the undress ribbon is worn, each award of the Cross shall be indicated by a small representation of the Cross, and where two or more such representations are worn those representations shall be equally spaced on the ribbon.

POST-NOMINAL LETTERS A recipient is entitled to use the letters “VC”.


Cheers
__________________
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 26-07-03, 03:47
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
former OC MLU, AKA 'Jif' - sadly no longer with us
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,400
Default

It still ain't a REAL V.C. ... doesn't even look like one, and I'll bet it's sure as hell not made out of the same original bronze stock.

All a moot point anyway... since our army doesn't "fight" anymore... :

Great column in the National Post today, by Robert Martin:

http://www.nationalpost.com/commenta...A-4EC1D2392D8F

.... Not only have ideological currents made it difficult for us to have a foreign policy, but they have led us to destroy the institutions essential to having one. The foreign service, largely through years of so-called employment equity, has been degraded and demoralized. The near-collapse of the Canadian Armed Forces is not the result of neglect but of widespread hostility and hatred. In our feminized culture, being sensitive and caring and tolerant are seen as the most virtuous forms of behaviour. This belief necessitates a degree of hostility towards the military. The tasks of the military are to kill people and break things, acts which are as distant from being sensitive, caring and tolerant as can be imagined. And how could we possibly have Armed Forces when we are saddled with a Minister of National Defence who is so ignorant that he does not know what either Vimy or Vichy is?

That says it all. There will be no more decorations for valour on the field of battle awarded. It's... it's... just not politically correct!

UUURRRGGGHHH!!!
__________________
SUNRAY SENDS AND ENDS
:remember :support
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 26-07-03, 04:10
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball

That says it all. There will be no more decorations for valour on the field of battle awarded. It's... it's... just not politically correct!

UUURRRGGGHHH!!!
And I'm GUILTY by association these days... my interest in my Uncle and searching is very politically incorrect...especially here in the little corner of Canada. Pisses me off ... says little Un-Happy Yappy
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 26-07-03, 04:19
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
former OC MLU, AKA 'Jif' - sadly no longer with us
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,400
Default

It's your DUTY, girl, and you damned well won't stop. SOMEONE has to carry the flame, and it's up to people like us.

G.
__________________
SUNRAY SENDS AND ENDS
:remember :support
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 26-07-03, 04:41
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
It's your DUTY, girl, and you damned well won't stop. SOMEONE has to carry the flame, and it's up to people like us.

G.
Yeah... that's sort of my feelings on things too. You know, the other hard thing about my personal research/etc is that the topic is so... ouch... to be really open and out front asking for info, getting info, and just generally posting and yapping. It's like there's a pressure to censor because it can cause problems between certain "us and them and biz dealings etc"... none of this stuff occured to me when I started my little searching a few months ago (god...is that ALL...just since about MARCH this year???...oiy)

I tell yah Geoff... and everyone else... I'm sure learning a lot of things as a bi-product of researching a "family mystery" for personal reasons...

I get to find out about all sorts of folks... and military history... and talk to amazing people.

Smokey... I seem to remember talking to Gavin a few years ago... and it fogggily comes back to me that he talked about Lila's dad being a VC recipient... at the time it wasn't "important" because i didn't understand the signifigance. I understood by G's attitude when he talked that it was pretty damned special tho

I, for one, am glad to be learning everything I am... I just wish that the truth could be easily talked about and heard by everyone. Taboo. Eff U.

Ah well... I'll keep yapping and hanging out with people who understand and care... and encourage knowledge and caring... like you dudes and dude-esses. Thanks all... for being here!!! Karmen
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 26-07-03, 06:22
Art Johnson
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default History

Carman I'm with you. There almost seems to be a conspiracy by those on the scene now to keep our military past silent. Maybe you should create a web page about those that were murdered by the Hitler Jugend, you have certainly gathered a lot of material about it.
I am presently working with Geoff to create a web site about the 1st Bn 48th Highlanders which we hope to have on line soon.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 26-07-03, 06:41
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: History

Quote:
Originally posted by Art Johnson
Carman I'm with you. There almost seems to be a conspiracy by those on the scene now to keep our military past silent. Maybe you should create a web page about those that were murdered by the Hitler Jugend, you have certainly gathered a lot of material about it.
I am presently working with Geoff to create a web site about the 1st Bn 48th Highlanders which we hope to have on line soon.
Hey Art... I'm glad you're "with me" I also LOVE your idea about the website... I'd also like to see a book of Mini Bio's of all 156 of the Canadian POWS who were executed (see my Uncles thread)

AS afr as building the website goes my old set-up can't handle it! I'll see what I can do tho Take care....Carman
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 26-07-03, 09:41
DaveCox's Avatar
DaveCox DaveCox is offline
Commonwealth NOT Europe
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sussex, England
Posts: 394
Default RE. PC and history

Jeez, I thought our government was bad, and I rant about them enough. Keep at it Yappy, Geoff, Art and the others.

History is part of our heritage and ( as Sunray was quick enough to remind me previously) it can't be taken away or hidden; whatever the lefty woofter-loving PC crowd say or do.

We have to keep on reminding others that we all have a past to be proud of and not let it be buried in the pile of crap that our 'representatives' in our respective governments dish out all the time.

Perhaps we ought to wear a lapel-badge with the Churchill V-sign, the flag of our respect veterans legions and a legend that says We'll Never Forget ( or something like that) - then if anyone asks what the badge is for - tell'em.

Keep digging away at the history and posting it so that others can see it, never give up and don't let the enthusiasm die, because if we do then the PC-crowd win and all that our ancestors fought for is lost forever.
__________________
Wear a poppy - support our Veterans and the Royal British Legion

A wasted youth is better by far than a wise and productive old age!! (Meatloaf)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 26-07-03, 10:06
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Wink

Geez... guess I'm gonna have to keep at it...cause I'd rather have all you folks behind me encouraging and helping me than walking behind me and kicking me little arse.........which I'm sure you'd all come lookin' fer me if I gave up

ART:... I'll definately be visiting your website when it's up. Let us know when it's rockin' and rollin' Maybe I'll even put on a kilt when I view itthe first time, just for the heck of it. I'm sure the Piper who lives upstairs would lend me his
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 26-07-03, 17:08
Garry Shipton (RIP) Garry Shipton (RIP) is offline
RIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 827
Default Smokey Smith's Victoria Cross

Dear Karmen or Kermit.I like Little Miss Yappy better

As an aside, my dad had the privledge of driving Smokey in his CMP C-60GS to the rear in Italy just after his action defending the bridge.He noted Smokey was wearing coveralls over his battle dress,he was muddy & dirty,and all he wanted was for my dad to stop at the nearest Naafi,where he cud get a cup of tea & a donut,the request of which was accomplished.The quiet hero.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 26-07-03, 18:30
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Smokey Smith's Victoria Cross

Quote:
Originally posted by Garry Shipton
Dear Karmen or Kermit.I like Little Miss Yappy better

As an aside, my dad had the privledge of driving Smokey in his CMP C-60GS to the rear in Italy just after his action defending the bridge.He noted Smokey was wearing coveralls over his battle dress,he was muddy & dirty,and all he wanted was for my dad to stop at the nearest Naafi,where he cud get a cup of tea & a donut,the request of which was accomplished.The quiet hero.

OK...Little Miss Yappy to YOU then

I get the impression that "Smokey" is very much his own person, pretty outspoken, unpretentious, forthright and quite the character...and FULL of character??? In fact... he sounds like a "country boy"...was he??? It would be really neat to meet him. Maybe if I get to Vancouver soon (8 or so hours drive) I'll see if I can wangle a meeting Gavin owes me for all the under the table Irish-Coffees I used to serve him, off and on for about 12 years... I ALWAYS tipped the Jamiesons a bit more for him!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 26-07-03, 20:12
Jon Skagfeld's Avatar
Jon Skagfeld Jon Skagfeld is offline
M38A1 CDN3
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Owen Sound ON
Posts: 2,190
Default On a lighter note...

Quote:
...bi-product...?
Something you want to discuss in therapy?
__________________
PRONTO SENDS
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 26-07-03, 23:58
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
Senior Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 3,027
Talking Re: VC

To Jon and Geoff;

After pointing out to me the other day that the VC was still 'in' for Canadians, you'll never guess what I came across today, me thinks someone is trying to tell me something.... a new chart, put out by DHH, dated March 2003 and yes, you guessed it...the V.C. in the upper left hand corner of said chart......oh well, can I take my foot out of my mouth now

Cheers
__________________
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 28-07-03, 06:41
Garry Shipton (RIP) Garry Shipton (RIP) is offline
RIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 827
Default Re: Re: Re: Victoria Cross

Quote:
Originally posted by Vets_Dottir
VC...from 1854...1354 recipients up to the present? Very very special honour award then!!!
In Dominion Square here in Montreal,adjacent to our War Memorial,& just in front of John A.McDonald's statue are two captured cannons which were presented to the city by the regiment of our first Canadian born recipient of the Victoria Cross(in the Crimea,will post later),having done Garrison duty here before embarking to the Crimea.Sooo,if they ever need more metal for making the cross,there are two guns here on exhibit available for the task
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 29-07-03, 15:37
Gordon Yeo Gordon Yeo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Clinton Ontario
Posts: 409
Default Smokey" Smith is his own person

As Carmen speculates "Smokey" is his own person.He himself has said he wasn't a model soldier.One story he tells is being docked 28 days pay and doing the Sicily campaign gratis.He must be quite a character as must all his peers.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 29-07-03, 16:14
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Smokey" Smith is his own person

Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Yeo
As Carmen speculates "Smokey" is his own person.He himself has said he wasn't a model soldier.One story he tells is being docked 28 days pay and doing the Sicily campaign gratis.He must be quite a character as must all his peers.

A rebellious sort I think...I seem to remember reading something about Smokey refusing to follow higher ups orders if following thru on them would put his men at risk. It sounds liked he definately refused/rebelled, but for altruistic reasons. If thats so... I sure as hell like Smokey's attitude.

As far as peers being characters go, I don't know... but G, Smokeys daughters friend, is definately a CHARACTER

I think I've said this before in the MLU, and I'll say it again... "You don't know who you're knowing when you're knowing them. You usually find out later who you knew...but didn't know!"
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 29-07-03, 16:30
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Smokey Smith's Victoria Cross

Quote:
Originally posted by Garry Shipton
Dear Karmen or Kermit.I like Little Miss Yappy better

As an aside, my dad had the privledge of driving Smokey in his CMP C-60GS to the rear in Italy just after his action defending the bridge.He noted Smokey was wearing coveralls over his battle dress,he was muddy & dirty,and all he wanted was for my dad to stop at the nearest Naafi,where he cud get a cup of tea & a donut,the request of which was accomplished.The quiet hero.

Hi Garry, was this "defending the bridge" thing the action that earned Smokey the VC???
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 31-07-03, 04:22
Frank Misztal's Avatar
Frank Misztal Frank Misztal is offline
Old Sigs Type
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kingston, ON, Canada
Posts: 139
Default Re: Re: Smokey" Smith is his own person

Quote:
Originally posted by Vets_Dottir
A rebellious sort I think...I seem to remember reading something about Smokey refusing to follow higher ups orders if following thru on them would put his men at risk. It sounds liked he definately refused/rebelled, but for altruistic reasons. If thats so... I sure as hell like Smokey's attitude. ...
You're right about that. I had the distinct pleasure of meeting Smokey, when he went with us to Vimy Ridge in Nov '97. I was part of the NDHQ honour guard that participated in 3 ceremonies between 7 & 10 Nov.

Smokey was quite the character on the plane and at the hotel bar in Lille, France. When someone asked him about his VC, he said that he didn't know what the fuss was all about. He said he was half-pissed when he did what he did. He also noted that anyone who went into battle like that needed to have a few or they wouldn't have survived.

For those interested, the ceremonies we participated in were: the remembrance at the Vimy monument, a dedication at the Beaumont Hamel monument and, the burial of 3 remaining crew members of a downed Halifax bomber that were found in a bog in Belgium (The whole crew are now back together in a small cemetery of a village just west of Brussels. This was, by far, the most moving ceremony I've ever attended).

Incidentally, that was the first time I set foot on Belgian soil (where I was born) since I left there in 1956. Unfortunately, we did not have time to go to Brussels (where I lived for a couple years before emigrating), some 35km east of the little village we were in.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 31-07-03, 06:24
Vets_Dottir
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Great Memories!

Hi Frank. You have some GREAT memories Carman
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016